<message id="<AC6C25C69668714D9@pendred.demon.co.uk>" date="3018909110" seqno="10600">
From: justin@pendred.demon.co.uk (Justin Cormack)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Entity namespace pollution
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 1995 02:51:50 +0100
Message-ID: \<AC6C25C69668714D9@pendred.demon.co.uk>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk> \<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> \<AC69589096686615@pendred.demon.co.uk> <424c67$mea@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <19950831T141720Z@naggum.no>

In article <19950831T141720Z@naggum.no>,
Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no> wrote:

>now, nearly all character sets and fonts in the world can be automatically
>mapped to ISO 10646 names through one or more steps.  I have made a charset
>definition for ISO 10646 available in ftp.ifi.uio.no:/pub/SGML/CHARSET, and
>have typed in a few (~500) character sets using these names, such that the
>distance from your system to the ISO 10646 name should be relatively short.
>
>if there exists a mapping from your font or character set to ISO 10646
>names, and all entity sets are defined in terms of ISO 10646 names, you
>have a system that scales exceedingly well, and affords automatic
>conversion to boot.  this in contrast to the existing mess wherein entirely
>useless identifiers are used as the point of reference, and, since we don't
>even know what the entities actually mean (see Heather Davenport's recent
>Quest for the Meaning of Epsilon), the manual work necessary is needlessly
>tedious and error-prone.
>
>however, I do see the value of commonly accepted entity names (people and
>programmers being what they are (fiercely resistant towards any and all
>improvements to their working conditions)), so I think we need a renaming
>scheme for entities such that people can use convenient names (ae, oe, aa)
>and the parsers can feed the corresponding "standard" names (aelig, oslash,
>aring) to the applications.

Thanks for your ISO 10646 set. The note in the README file says it all
really: do not mirror this file. Hopefully it is correct, but what we
actually need is a set of reliable conversion tables. Everyone seems to
have assumed that they are the only reference source of glyph names, rather
than assuming that every standard has to be defined in terms of other
current usages. Yes, it would be very nice if everyone could use Unicode as
a reference set, but we need a reference set of glyph conversions between
de-facto 'standards' first.So long as we can convert without problems it
doesnt matter what the naming conventions are.

As far as I can see we need a registry (that can be freely mirrored,
because the creators are responsible for accuracy) of glyph name
conversions between the common standards which include TeX, Postscript
fonts (glyph names are only semi-standard), ISO 8879, Unicode, and so
forth. Rather than defining public entity sets in terms of (ambiguous)
vaguely-human-readable names, they could be defined in terms of other
public sets. And font vendors surely have an interest in telling the world
what their glyphs correspond to (so we can look up which symbol sets will
print the contents of our documents).

I do however entirely agree with Erik on renaming (on the previous thread I
was really thinking about entity sets that were non-standard for no good
reason, when common sets could be used): no reason that we should not
choose our names convenience.

Justin Cormack



</message>
<message id="<425u42$5v8@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>" date="3018914370" seqno="10601">
From: John Lamp \<John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Encoding a '>'?
Date: 1 Sep 1995 03:19:30 GMT
Organization: University of Tasmania, Department of Computer Science
Message-ID: <425u42$5v8@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>
References: <4222cp$qne$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com>

Peter Zingg <71170.1226@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>Dumb and dumber question:  how do you put a literal '>' or '<' 
>into your HTML document, without screwing up the parser?

> = \&gt;
< = \&lt;

Cheers
John
--
   _--_|\\             John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
  /      \\                 Phone: 002 20 2375 - Fax: 002 20 2913
  \\_.--._/                       email: John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au
        v <--<<          http://lamp.cs.utas.edu.au/jw_lamp.html


</message>
<message id="<4262hn$5bj@shellx.best.com>" date="3018918903" seqno="10603">
From: ftmexpat@shell1.best.com (Frank McNeil)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Where can I find HTML DTD?
Date: 1 Sep 1995 04:35:03 GMT
Organization: Best Internet Communications
Message-ID: <4262hn$5bj@shellx.best.com>
References: <424to9$hgu@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>


Manuela Schoene (manu@cs.ualberta.ca) wrote:
: I need an HTML DTD for my work.
: Can somebody tell me where I can find it???

You can find them at 

ftp://ftp.hal.com/pub/CGI/html/html.dtds.tar.Z

 at 

http://www.halsoft.com/html/

You may also be able to download version 1.29 separately.

\<!--    html.dtd

        Document Type Definition for the HyperText Markup Language
                 (HTML DTD)

        $Id: html.dtd,v 1.29 1995/08/04 17:50:22 connolly Exp $

        Author: Daniel W. Connolly \<connolly@w3.org>
        See Also: html.decl, html-1.dtd
          http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/MarkUp.html


frank
</message>
<message id="<425qnv$2gh@athena.itl.saic.com>" date="3018910987" seqno="10604">
From: robert_agnew@cpqm.saic.com (Bob Agnew)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Microsoft's SGML Author for Word
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 1995 02:23:07 GMT
Organization: SAIC Test and Measurement Systems
Message-ID: <425qnv$2gh@athena.itl.saic.com>
References: <421kl5$kp7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: robert_agnew@cpqm.saic.com

kgeorge800@aol.com (KGeorge800) wrote:

>SGML'ers

>What is the latest information on Microsoft's SGML Author for Word
>product?  I have not heard or seen anything since the April timeframe. 
>Can someone fill me in?

>Thanks!
>Kevin George
>CDS, Incorporated

Well, its been available since then. I think I got our three copies
about the first of May. What do you want to know about it?

</message>
<message id="<4260d3$2uj@athena.itl.saic.com>" date="3018916782" seqno="10605">
From: robert_agnew@cpqm.saic.com (Bob Agnew)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Any good books on structured SGML programming
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 1995 03:59:42 GMT
Organization: SAIC Test and Measurement Systems
Message-ID: <4260d3$2uj@athena.itl.saic.com>
References: \<donturn-1208952012340001@indigo.skiles.gatech.edu> <40ofij$hgq@amhux3.amherst.edu> <410s2q$c25@athena.itl.saic.com> <412e57$jhl@hopper.acm.org> \<DDv9xn.Cu2@world.std.com>
Reply-To: robert_agnew@cpqm.saic.com

jbottoms@world.std.com (John W Bottoms) wrote:

>\<deleted>
>Then I would have to argue that C is not an executable language. It is
>a description of a linguistic instance that can be converted to an
>executable. 

>Dave, I know you and I have not come to an understanding on this (yet?)
>but rather define something in terms of an existing acronym (CLL, DDL)
>(or was that tongue in cheek?) let's talk about capabilities. The difficulty
>in saying what an SGML instance can do is that it gets translated first
>and there is no standard for what the translation does. I can envision
>an DTD for a programming language. So is that DTD executable? No, no more
>so than a C copy of K\&R is executable. But that is misleading to people
>who don't understand the scope of difference between a DTD and an instance.
>Can an SGML instance be executable? Yes, I think so. Hey, some C translation
>units are not! (structs for instance.)

Soryy I've been so lax in responding. Been off implementing an SGML
parser and HyTime engine. I agree pretty much except that the
semantics of C is included in the language spec and state what results
should be generated for each coonstruct. In SGML there are no such
semantics; these are known only to the application. It is in this
sense that SGML is said to be an enableing technology. Now one can
program in a language defined by an SGML DTD such as MIL-D-87269 or
the MID as there are execution semantics specified in the accompaning 
documents. However, my original point (there was one) was that these
execution semantics are entirely outside of the purview of ISO 8879.

</message>
<message id="<426il3$32t@idefix.eunet.fi>" date="3018970331" seqno="10606">
From: Martti.Poutanen@index.fi (Martti Poutanen)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Tags
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 1995 18:52:11 GMT
Message-ID: <426il3$32t@idefix.eunet.fi>
References: <4256vs$1oe@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>

fpappas@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Frank Charles Pappas) wrote:


>Greetings.

>I am in need of a list of SGML tags, and despite the wonders of the web, etc,
>I have so far been unable to locate one.  Anybody able to point me in the right
>direction?  I'm having to translate SGML stuff into HTML, and would like to have
>at least a minimal understanding of the doc's structure/arrangement before I mess
>with it.

SGML does not define any tag names, the DTD (Document Type Definition)
specifies tag names and their structure in a specific application.
HTML is an example of a application specific DTD.

Translating SGML -> HTML is mapping process where application specific
elements (and their content) is mapped to a generic typographic
elements. It "should" be pretty straightforward, since You go from
"clever" DTD to a "dummy" DTD, with a good SGML->SGML converter, such
as Balise or OmniMark
>Any and all help is appreciated.

>Frank

Martti Poutanen
Index Information Technologies Oy
Otsolahdentie 8D 02110 ESPOO FINLAND
phone:358-0-461977, fax: 358-0-462849
email: Martti.Poutanen@index.fi
WWW: www.index.fi

</message>
<message id="<426lhr$kjd@hp817s2.mis.eurocontrol.be>" date="3018938805" seqno="10607">
From: mike.gilpin@eurocontrol.be (Mike Gilpin)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Tags
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 1995 10:06:45 GMT
Organization: Eurocontrol
Message-ID: <426lhr$kjd@hp817s2.mis.eurocontrol.be>
References: <4256vs$1oe@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>
Reply-To: mike.gilpin@eurocontrol.be

fpappas@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Frank Charles Pappas) honoured us with
these kind words:
>I am in need of a list of SGML tags, and despite the wonders of the web, etc,
>I have so far been unable to locate one.  Anybody able to point me in the right
>direction?  I'm having to translate SGML stuff into HTML, and would like to have
>at least a minimal understanding of the doc's structure/arrangement before I mess
>with it.

Hi Frank,

Sorry but your question does not make sense. SGML is a general
language used to define various document structures. Each different
structure is defined by a DTD (document type definition) and I suspect
that this is what you need.

Your SGML documents will indicate which DTD is being used in a
DOCTYPE statement at the top of the file. It is the documentation for
these DTD's which you need.

Note that HTML is merely a specific DTD which someone has defined.

If you want more information about the SGML language - buy a book.

If you need more information on specific DTD's which are referenced in
your documents, try posting questions here.

Hope this helps...

Mike

</message>
<message id="<19950901T122901Z@naggum.no>" date="3018947341" seqno="10608">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Entity namespace pollution
Date: 01 Sep 1995 12:29:01 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950901T122901Z@naggum.no>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk> \<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> \<AC69589096686615@pendred.demon.co.uk> <424c67$mea@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <19950831T141720Z@naggum.no> \<AC6C25C69668714D9@pendred.demon.co.uk>

[Erik Naggum]

|   now, nearly all character sets and fonts in the world can be
|   automatically mapped to ISO 10646 names through one or more steps.  I
|   have made a charset definition for ISO 10646 available in
|   ftp.ifi.uio.no:/pub/SGML/CHARSET, and have typed in a few (~500)
|   character sets using these names, such that the distance from your
|   system to the ISO 10646 name should be relatively short.

[Justin Cormack]

|   Thanks for your ISO 10646 set.  The note in the README file says it all
|   really: do not mirror this file.  Hopefully it is correct, but what we
|   actually need is a set of reliable conversion tables.  Everyone seems
|   to have assumed that they are the only reference source of glyph names,
|   rather than assuming that every standard has to be defined in terms of
|   other current usages.

agreed, that is why I started the project to map all the ISO 2375 character
sets and IBM CDRA level 1 code pages to ISO 10646 names.  unfortunately,
this was my first brush with an attempt to get paid for (over 800 hours of)
volunteer work that people find so obviously useful that they told me they
"desperately" needed it, except that their desperation translated to
exactly zero dollars and zero cents.  "compliments is what you give someone
when you understand that what they really want is money."

|   As far as I can see we need a registry (that can be freely mirrored,
|   because the creators are responsible for accuracy) of glyph name
|   conversions between the common standards which include TeX, Postscript
|   fonts (glyph names are only semi-standard), ISO 8879, Unicode, and so
|   forth.

sigh.  it is _because_ I want to be responsible for the accuracy that I
do not want people to mirror it and cause others to miss updates to it.
please note that the Unicode consortium has rules to the same effect: you
can do anything you want with their files, _except_ ship them to others
with your own packaging.  this makes it possible for the Unicode consortium
to trust that their files on their server is what is used when people build
programs that use them.  more important than mirroring is that I want to
restrict this to SGML systems.  imagine my surprise when it turns up in a
Common Lisp implementation in a _manually_ reformatted form that makes it
even harder to fix problems.

|   Rather than defining public entity sets in terms of (ambiguous)
|   vaguely-human-readable names, they could be defined in terms of other
|   public sets.  And font vendors surely have an interest in telling the
|   world what their glyphs correspond to (so we can look up which symbol
|   sets will print the contents of our documents).

how does this disagree with what I just said?  you talk about glyphs, while
I talk about characters.  the difference is important, but re naming, it is
immaterial what we name.

|   I do however entirely agree with Erik on renaming (on the previous
|   thread I was really thinking about entity sets that were non-standard
|   for no good reason, when common sets could be used): no reason that we
|   should not choose our names convenience.

I appreciate that.

#\<Erik 3018947340>
-- 
they accepted the results of science, but rejected its methods.
</message>
<message id="<19950901T123351Z@naggum.no>" date="3018947631" seqno="10609">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Tags
Date: 01 Sep 1995 12:33:51 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950901T123351Z@naggum.no>
References: <4256vs$1oe@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>

[Frank Charles Pappas]

|   I am in need of a list of SGML tags, and despite the wonders of the
|   web, etc, I have so far been unable to locate one.  Anybody able to
|   point me in the right direction?  I'm having to translate SGML stuff
|   into HTML, and would like to have at least a minimal understanding of
|   the doc's structure/arrangement before I mess with it.

the document type definition for your document should have told you all you
need to know about what the "tags" (please use the correct terminology:
"elements", as the tags are just the delimiters on each side of them).  if
you didn't receive a complete SGML document (which includes the formal SGML
and documentation on the document type), complain very loudly to whoever
gave you the SGML document.  that is, the _only_ source of information
about a given SGML document that is received in an incomplete shape, is
whoever gave it to you.

#\<Erik 3018947631>
-- 
they accepted the results of science, but rejected its methods.
</message>
<message id="<426sj6$t1@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3018945574" seqno="10610">
From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Tags
Date: 1 Sep 1995 11:59:34 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
Message-ID: <426sj6$t1@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>
References: <4256vs$1oe@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu> <426lhr$kjd@hp817s2.mis.eurocontrol.be>
Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com

Mike Gilpin (mike.gilpin@eurocontrol.be) wrote:
: fpappas@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Frank Charles Pappas) honoured us with
: these kind words:
: >I am in need of a list of SGML tags, and despite the wonders of the web
                             ^^^^^^^^^

I'll elaborate on Mike's comments:

SGML (ISO 8879 standard) does not define _any_ tags! It is a meta-language.
It provides a standardized way to define _your own_ tag set. This
standardized way is the DTD mentioned in the following paragraph.


: Sorry but your question does not make sense. SGML is a general
: language used to define various document structures. Each different
: structure is defined by a DTD (document type definition) and I suspect
: that this is what you need.

: Your SGML documents will indicate which DTD is being used in a
: DOCTYPE statement at the top of the file. It is the documentation for
: these DTD's which you need.

Some (broken) applications of SGML have a 'gentleman's agreement' to
use a particular DTD, and therefore may not have a DOCTYPE declaration.
In that case, the DTD you need can be inferred from the very first tag
it the document instance.

ex.

\<HTML>
... blah, blah, blah
\</HTML>

would need: \<!DOCTYPE HTML...


--
  Tad McClellan,      Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy)
  Birthdays are good for you ...
  A federally funded study has shown that people with the
  most birthdays live the longest.
</message>
<message id="<4273u1$jm@tahiti.bioko.ifi.unizh.ch>" date="3018953089" seqno="10611">
From: merz@ifi.unizh.ch (Dominic A Merz)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Seminar on SGML at the University of Zurich, Switzerland
Date: 1 Sep 1995 16:04:49 +0200
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Zurich
Message-ID: <4273u1$jm@tahiti.bioko.ifi.unizh.ch>


The "Computational Linguistics Group" of the "Department of Computer Science" at the University of Zurich will offer a seminar about "Using SGML for Document Markup and Retrieval".

Date: October 11th and 12th, 1995

Place: University of Zurich (Irchel Campus), Switzerland

Language: The seminar will be held in German.


Abstract:

In the seminar we will offer a brief introduction to the philosophy of SGML and to its language elements. We show how SGML can be employed for structuring, retrieval, and distribution of documents and offer an opportunity for hands-on experience with SGML and HTML software tools.

A representative from the airline industry and from a publishing house will each share their knowledge about SGML in practice. A colleague from the ETH Zurich will talk about his experiments with SGML databases.

A number of software companies will be present and provide criteria for selecting the appropriate tools for a given task.

Finally, we shall look at the connection between SGML and HTML and the future developments of SGML documents in the Internet.


For a registration form send email to:

maurer@ifi.unizh.ch


The following URL provides further information and a detailed program (in German):

http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/groups/hess/FOSIProgramm.html


If you have any specific questions please do not hesitate to contact
Dominic A. Merz (merz@ifi.unizh.ch) or 
Martin Volk (volk@ifi.unizh.ch).
</message>
<message id="<427aqv$65j@mojo.eng.umd.edu>" date="3018960159" seqno="10612">
From: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Charles B. Robey)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Installing DTDs
Date: 1 Sep 1995 16:02:39 GMT
Organization: Project GLUE, University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Message-ID: <427aqv$65j@mojo.eng.umd.edu>

I am trying to get an sgml tool working on my unix system called SGMLS.pm,
but I think it's not working because I do not have the Docbook DTDs
correctly installed.  If I read this correctly, I have to deal with an
environment variable called SGML_PATH, which is encoded with a set of
%escaped path templates, but I can't understand quite how to do this yet.
Could someone either explain to me how this works, or post an example of a
valid SGML_PATH ?

Thanks!
--
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<CONNOLLY.95Sep1141711@w3.org>" date="3018968230" seqno="10613">
From: connolly@w3.org (Dan Connolly)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Where can I find HTML DTD?
Date: 01 Sep 1995 18:17:10 GMT
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Message-ID: \<CONNOLLY.95Sep1141711@w3.org>
References: <424to9$hgu@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>
In-reply-to: manu@cs.ualberta.ca's message of 31 Aug 1995 18:07:05 GMT

In article <424to9$hgu@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> manu@cs.ualberta.ca (Manuela Schoene) writes:

 > Path: senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!nntpserver.pppl.gov!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!vanbc.wimsey.com!unixg.ubc.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!alberta!manu
 > From: manu@cs.ualberta.ca (Manuela Schoene)
 > Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
 > Date: 31 Aug 1995 18:07:05 GMT
 > Organization: Computing Science, U of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
 > Lines: 5
 > NNTP-Posting-Host: sawnlk.cs.ualberta.ca
 > 
 > I need an HTML DTD for my work.
 > Can somebody tell me where I can find it???

I suggest:

Public Text of the HTML 2.0 Specification
http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/html-spec/html-pubtext.html
$Id: html-pubtext.html,v 1.11 1995/08/08 20:12:02 connolly Exp $

In particular, the link to the Aug 4 distribution:

http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/html-spec/html-pubtext-19950804.tar.gz


Dan
--
Daniel W. Connolly        "We believe in the interconnectedness of all things"
Research Scientist, MIT/W3C     PGP: EDF8 A8E4 F3BB 0F3C  FD1B 7BE0 716C FF21 
\<connolly@w3.org>             http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/People/Connolly
</message>
<message id="<809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>" date="3018977987" seqno="10614">
From: Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 95 20:59:47 GMT
Organization: Myorganisation
Message-ID: <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com>
Reply-To: Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk

Gail and colleagues,
	I have been in a very similar situation to you so I hope I can
tackle your plea, though I doubt if it's going to be optimistic :-(.  I'm
not an SGML expert, so I hope those who are will gently correct me where 
I make mistakes.
	People like you and me who start investigating SGML for their problems 
find that it may provide them with something different from what they expected.
In particular they may find that there is less PD/shareware to help them get
off the ground quickly.  This is a pity, because SGML is, basically,
a Good Thing.
	In what I say I take a middle ground to the commercialisation of
software.  Good software needs a lot of work and sometimes this is available 
for free.  I believe that systems where there is very little 'free' software 
do not get as much exploration/investigation as others, and in my view SGML is
difficult, though not impossible, to explore without buying commercial 
products.
 
In article <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> gail@telepath.com "Gail Sullivan" writes:

> Hello All -
>   We have just learned that the database project (academic) we are
> working on should be marked up using SGML.  While we are reading all
	As you'll see below, you'll need to give more details about your
project if you are going to get much help.
> FAQ's and ordering _Practical_SGML_ some questions remain:
> 
> Concern #1: No money! We need to use public domain/shareware 
> software since we cannot buy any. We need it to run on Windows 
> for now and possibly UNIX later on.
	I have come across two excellent 'free' systems for supporting SGML:
	- Earl Hood's dtd2html and related software (requires perl, which
		is also free)
	- James Clark's SGMLS (or NSGMLS and SP).  There are some binaries
		on the net and the source code (C or C++).  I haven't
		compiled SP because I haven't got g++ running yet.

>         a. Front end software for the user/browser
>         b. Scripting/Parsing software for the search engine
>         c. The database itself - \<?>
>         d. Electronic Delivery to the user
	These are very wide-ranging requirements and I doubt that you will find 
anything much to help you - I'll explain why.
> 
> Is there one program that does all this that is versatile and free?
	No :-(
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here goes - please correct errors :-)  This is how I shall try to explain
SGML to people who haven't come across it before.

	SGML is not a set of programs but a standard for marking up documents
and managing information. You can, in principle, do SGML markup with a 
pencil and read it by eye.  It offers you a set of rules for the markup 
and a means for managing distributed information.  SGML has a 
process called 'parsing' where the rules in the DTD are applied.  The 
different components of the information ('entities') are combined and the
*structure* of the resulting document is checked against the rules. If there 
are errors, the document is invalid; otherwise you have a valid document.
	How you create the DTD, how you create a document and what you then
do with a document is formally outside the scope of SGML.  For example, let's
assume that your 'database' is of the staff in your institution.  You might 
have a simple DTD which describes PERSON with attributes such as NAME, PHONE, 
etc. The final product might simply be a listing of several hundred names in 
SGML format such as:
\<PERSON NAME="Foo bar" PHONE="12345678" DEPT="WIDGETS">
Normally, of course, there would be an application program that used this
list to do what you wanted - but that could be many things.  You could search
it for all the staff in WIDGETS, automatically mail everyone junk each
week, produce a typeset version of the staff list, translate this into HTML,
etc.  So there is, unfortunately no generic application program :-(

	My impression from the SGML community is that problems fall into the 
following types:
	- you need to manage your information in a way that has already been
done elsewhere, and you can use an existing DTD into which you can squeeze 
your problem.
For example, if you are a publisher you should try ISO-12083 which is a DTD
constructed for this purpose.  Because it is commonly used, you'll probably
find (commercial) suppliers of tools to create and edit documents, and also
tools to 'render' documents (view them on the screen, print them, typeset
them etc.)
	- you have a novel information problem, or a problem which is 
business-critical.  In this case you may find a (SGML) software house
who will help you construct a DTD, and a set of tools to create documents.
You will presumably also have to ask them to write application programs to
render your documents.  It is VERY important to realise that every ELEMENT 
in a DTD will need a chunk of code written to process it in the application
program.  I'm open to correction, but I would assume that for almost
every DTD, at least one completely new application program has had to be 
written.  I'm not aware of a large SGML market in re-using code from one
application to another.  This linkage of the DTD to application programs
is not appreciated by newcomers, who (like I did) think there will be some
sort of tools 'out there'.  In your request you mentioned FOUR different
applications - all will require to be separately written - though they
might be combined into one system.  So you are asking for a great deal!
	- you have a novel application, but you either don't have money,
or, like me, you want to *explore* SGML before you commit.  Ideally you would
like at least 5 tools to play with and find out what SGML is all about.
I do not know how many of these exist commercially (I'd be grateful to
know including costs).  I have only found the two tools above which are
freely available.
	A: You want to be able to create and edit a DTD with something
		more sophisticated than a text editor.  (All my DTD's
		are done by typing).  The (commercial) SGML Companion 
		announced a few days ago on this list appears to do this.

	B: You want to explore a DTD (or set of DTDs).   dtd2html is a very
		nice (perl) program which does this.  Thank you, Earl Hood.
		I shall use this to produce some of my documentation.

	C: You want to create ('edit') a document using a DTD.  I have no idea
		whether there is a generic tool that does this.  Presumably
		most widely-used  DTDs have at least one editor.

	D: You want to 'parse' a document against the DTD.  This is 
		syntactic validation of the structure of the document, and 
		it also manages the entities, adds defaults, etc.  sgmls
		is an excellent PD program which also produces a normalised
		output (in a fairly simple format).  'Normalised' means it 
		includes closing tags, defaults, etc.

	E: You want to 'browse' your document to make it easier to understand.
		This is, of course, application-dependent, but I can visualise
		two generic approaches.  One is to reformat it so that the
		tags are replaced by appropriate typography, the attributes
		are neatly nested, etc.  The other is to display the
		structure of the document graphically (SGML is basically
		hierarchical) and to be able to open/close elements by, say,
		clicking on them.  I am not aware of any 'free' offering here.

	F: You want to 'do' something with your document.  In principle I
		can envisage a generic tool which might read the document
		in as a structured object which can be searched, and where 
		elements can have run-time methods associated with them, etc.
		This tool would be of the same level of complexity as a
		GUI-builder, and I have no idea what might exist. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
	My conclusion, therefore, is that if you have a new application you
will have to either spend money, or time, or both.  I certainly have this 
problem with my own DTD (for chemistry).  My DTD is written but I shall 
need:
	- an editor
	- a simple browser which is capable of launching (existing) chemical
		helper applications.
I can't see much alternative to me and the community having to write these 
themselves in the first instance.  Anything I write I shall try to make as
generic as possible and publish if it's of wide enough applicability.
For my part I shall use tcl/tk, try to borrow code from anything I can find, 
and try to involve as many people as I can!  I shall also encourage commercial
developers to see the value of the project and to develop their own tools
and applications.

	Several people on this list have mentioned that SGML does not get
as wide usage as it deserves.  The lack of simple tools and the consequent
difficult of exploration are an important factor in this.

	P.

Peter Murray-Rust, domestic net connexion
</message>
<message id="<DE8sz9.150@cerc.wvu.edu>" date="3018974516" seqno="10615">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: sp memory mgmt
Message-ID: \<DE8sz9.150@cerc.wvu.edu>
From: fuchs@cerc.wvu.edu (Matthew Fuchs)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:01:56 GMT
Sender: news@cerc.wvu.edu
Organization: Concurrent Engineering Research Center

I've been forking an sgmls process to parse stuff, and am interested in moving to 
sp.  I would like to link sp to my executable, but need to know how well it does 
collecting the memory it uses when finished parsing.  Can I parse several documents
after another without experiencing memory leaks or other problems?

Matthew Fuchs
fuchs@cerc.wvu.edu
</message>
<message id="<810036851snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>" date="3019025651" seqno="10616">
From: Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 95 10:14:11 GMT
Organization: Myorganisation
Message-ID: <810036851snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com>
Reply-To: Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk

	I should have added that the list of public software for SGML is
under the excellent SGML Web page:
http://gopher.sil.org/sgml/publicSW.html

There are a number of tools there, most of which are UNIX-based and you will
need perl, emacs, tcl and itcl to run some of them. 

	P.

-- 
Peter Murray-Rust, domestic net connexion
</message>
<message id="<19950902T115810Z@naggum.no>" date="3019031890" seqno="10617">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: 02 Sep 1995 11:58:10 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950902T115810Z@naggum.no>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>

[Peter Murray-Rust]

|   For example, if you are a publisher you should try ISO-12083 which is a DTD
|   constructed for this purpose.

I would recommend very strongly _against_ ISO 12083.  it was based on the
AAP markup standard, but the current incarnation was created largely in a
void, and not by the broad agreement among users that is necessary for a
widespread and successful application of SGML.  there are also numerous
silly problems with it that such a user community would have discovered.

the value of standards is not in their ability to dictate (that is just a
fact that should not be exploited), but in their ability to attract.  what
would have been attractive in a standard, is a set of reusable, pluggable
low-level elements used in texts of varying complexity, and reasonably
common names for such elements.  among tons of cruft, this is the perceived
value of ISO 12083, but sorting out the good parts is not easy.

|   - you have a novel information problem, or a problem which is
|   business-critical.  In this case you may find a (SGML) software house
|   who will help you construct a DTD, and a set of tools to create
|   documents.  You will presumably also have to ask them to write
|   application programs to render your documents.  It is VERY important to
|   realise that every ELEMENT in a DTD will need a chunk of code written
|   to process it in the application program.  I'm open to correction, but
|   I would assume that for almost every DTD, at least one completely new
|   application program has had to be written.  I'm not aware of a large
|   SGML market in re-using code from one application to another.  This
|   linkage of the DTD to application programs is not appreciated by
|   newcomers, who (like I did) think there will be some sort of tools 'out
|   there'.  In your request you mentioned FOUR different applications -
|   all will require to be separately written - though they might be
|   combined into one system.  So you are asking for a great deal!

I believe the LINK concept in SGML was intended to address this.  it is
very unfortunate that this general mechanism is neither implemented nor
understood, so what you say is indeed true.  we must realize that as we
bring abstraction to our data and text representation (which ISO 12083 also
does not do -- it only produces a ton of "tags a publisher might need")
with SGML, so should the software bring abstraction to the task of using
it.  I have to admit, however, that the current state of affairs in both
commercially available and free software leans towards tedious repetition
of code.  they generally do one part of the job, and we're left to do the
rest.  now, in fairness, making a similarly abstract solution to "the rest
of the problem" would require much more effort than just designing SGML or
writing a parser (both of which are hard).  fortunately, we have come some
way in that regard, and DSSSL is its name.  the language is there (almost),
but I don't know of anybody who is actively working on a free DSSSL engine.

but let me talk about LINK for a second.  LINK allows the introduction of
computed attributes (mostly based on context) on elements and of mapping
from one DTD to another.  unfortunately, you specify the system by naming
all the arcs of the finite state machine representation of the problem, and
the complexity of such a system is very noticeable.  however, mapping from
one DTD to another is complex in itself, and formatting is an "impossible"
mission, anyway.  (DSSSL does it with queries, but I'm not sure how much
better that is in terms of amount of or complexity of code, or whether the
dream that it be possible to do "direct manipulation" style creation of
DSSSL specs can be realized.)

in any case, the mistake that most beginners to SGML make, and which few
experts know a way around, is that they map a given DTD into code in one
giant leap of faith.  this is a very serious mistake, because it is so
mind-bogglingly costly, and offers, as you quite correctly note, no chance
of intelligent code reuse.  however, when faced with a Berlin wall between
you and your goal, only the stupid would run into the wall over and over.
the smart would find ways around it, including, if possible, tearing it
down or building a ramp on each side that all but obliterated its blocking
capacity.  in other words: lots of dirty construction work to get there.

there are two basic solutions: one is using styles, but you will find that
you have to design the styles for every single DTD you design, and this
will be far more tedious than people generally think.  the other solution
is to map your elements into a DTD closer to the published medium, and to
repeat the mapping steps until you're there.  now, such mapping is not
generally available, but if you think in those terms, you will save time
and money, anyway.  when such software appears, you won't have such a hard
time adjusting to the new ideas.  (moreover, "styles" is just such a
mapping, but to a language just barely away from the display engine, and it
is not normally presented as an intelligent mapping.)

|   My conclusion, therefore, is that if you have a new application you
|   will have to either spend money, or time, or both.  I certainly have
|   this problem with my own DTD (for chemistry).

note, again, that much can be saved with an editor that is _not_ tuned to a
particular DTD, but which can be tuned to _any_ DTD through a separate
language that can go with the DTD itself, and which, not surprisingly, will
require the same kind of considerations as the mapping applications
mentioned above.

|   Several people on this list have mentioned that SGML does not get as
|   wide usage as it deserves.  The lack of simple tools and the consequent
|   difficult of exploration are an important factor in this.

I don't think there can be any "simple tools" to deal with SGML at a level
which is interesting to explore.  at the "simple tool" level, SGML is no
more than a data representation language, and a cumbersome one at that.  at
the "simple tools" level that people would like to use, data representation
languages are irrelevant.  as long as they supports hierarchical, labeled
structures, the data notation doesn't matter all that much.  just write a
simple mapping from your SGML system down into this other system.

now, what if we could get programmers in general to understand that it is
very useful to label both the start and the end of syntactic constructs in
a clean hierarchy, so they aren't tempted to write an intertwined mess of
discrete state changes?  currently, ugly dinosaurs like C++ and Perl rule
the day, with nearly uninterpretable syntaxes, which give a frightening
lesson to anyone interested in treating data and code as the same, so they
are instead going off in all directions to create their very own languages
and syntaxes for their data and application code.  may the future forgive
them, for they know not what they are doing.

to end on a less negative tone, I have found that a particular metaphor
works reasonably well in discussing SGML with programmers.  SGML defines an
application language that must be "compiled" to run on the display engines.
SGML shows no knowledge of compiler technology in the text of the standard,
but it encounters all the problems of compiler technology in getting from
the application language (DTD) to the end result, which is nothing more
than another language.  (programming languages only compile to other
languages with a sufficiently compact syntax to execute more or less
directly on the hardware.)  however, compiler technology is complex and not
easily mastered -- thinking in several languages at the same time (source
language, target language, mapping language) is not a common trait even
among programmers.  it has been a possibly fatal mistake to think that SGML
is for text.  it isn't.  it's for computers, and computers, to be mastered,
must be obeyed -- and SGML is much less obedient than you would expect from
a ten-year-old.

#\<Erik 3019031890>
-- 
they accepted the results of science, but rejected its methods.
</message>
<message id="<GTN.95Sep2112505@ebt-inc>" date="3019044305" seqno="10618">
From: gtn@ebt-inc (Gavin Nicol)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and EDI
Date: 02 Sep 1995 15:25:05 GMT
Organization: Electronic Book Technologies, Inc.
Message-ID: \<GTN.95Sep2112505@ebt-inc>
References: <40oir1$5qj@toon.ctp.com> \<DDCux0.A6p@world.std.com> <41403l$ost@sally.dma.org> <19950819T125812Z@naggum.no> <41ehs0$f21@sally.dma.org> <809201464snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <9508240156.AA26575@fly.hiwaay.net>
In-reply-to: Len Bullard's message of Wed, 23 Aug 1995 20:56:25 -0500

|   I am surprised that SGML seems to be so little used for data and that
|   the SGML community seems only to be interested in textual material.  My
|   impression is that SGML can be used to manage spreadsheet data,
|   relational tables, hierarchical data structures, and nested lists.

The only real problem is lack of lexical definitions for content and 
attribute values: you have to have something beside an SGML validator
to validate the lexical structure of one's documents.
--

Gavin Thomas Nicol                | He who will not reason, is a bigot;
Electronic Book Technologies      | he who cannot is a fool; 
Email:      gtn@ebt.com           | and he who dares not is a slave. 
Phone/FAX:  +81-3-3706-7351       |       --- Sir William Drummond

</message>
<message id="<42a48b$bf9@toads.pgh.pa.us>" date="3019051722" seqno="10619">
From: tore@lis.pitt.edu (Tore Joergensen)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Tags
Date: 2 Sep 1995 17:28:42 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <42a48b$bf9@toads.pgh.pa.us>
References: <4256vs$1oe@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>

Frank Charles Pappas (fpappas@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu) wrote:
: I am in need of a list of SGML tags, and despite the wonders of the web, etc,
: I have so far been unable to locate one.  Anybody able to point me in the
: right direction?  I'm having to translate SGML stuff into HTML, and would
: like to have at least a minimal understanding of the doc's structure/
: arrangement before I mess with it.

http://www.sgmlopen.org/ is a nice place to start looking for SGML-info.
--
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
| Tore B. Joergensen      | e-mail : tore@lis.pitt.edu                |
| Centre Court Villa      | web    : http://www.pitt.edu/~tojst1      |
| 5535 Centre Avenue # 6  |                                           |
| Pgh, PA 15232, USA      | Norwegian MSIS-student at Univ. of Pgh.   |
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
</message>
<message id="<42c44g$es1@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>" date="3019117136" seqno="10621">
From: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Where can I find HTML DTD?
Date: 3 Sep 1995 11:38:56 GMT
Organization: Student Pool, CSD., University of Erlangen
Message-ID: <42c44g$es1@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <424to9$hgu@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de

manu@cs.ualberta.ca (Manuela Schoene) writes:

>I need an HTML DTD for my work.
>Can somebody tell me where I can find it???

Have a look at

  \<http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/html-spec/html-pubtext.html>

The HTML 2.0 spec including the DTD should become an Internet standard
formally later this year. It is now pretty stable and in final review.

Markus

---
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -- University of Erlangen,
Internet Mail: \<mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> - Germany
WWW Home: \<http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/user/mskuhn>
</message>
<message id="<199509031459.HAA16033@tosh.jclark.com>" date="3019129141" seqno="10622">
From: James Clark \<jjc@jclark.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: sp memory mgmt
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 07:59:01 -0700
Message-ID: <199509031459.HAA16033@tosh.jclark.com>
In-Reply-To: \<DE8sz9.150@cerc.wvu.edu>


> I've been forking an sgmls process to parse stuff, and am interested in
> moving to sp.  I would like to link sp to my executable, but need to know
> how well it does collecting the memory it uses when finished parsing.  Can
> I parse several documents after another without experiencing memory leaks
> or other problems?

Yes. You can even parse multiple documents at the same time.  The
parser is implemented as a class with a destructor that frees all
memory that was used during parsing.  Nsgmls uses multiple parsers for
documents with subdocuments.

James Clark
jjc@jclark.com
</message>
<message id="<mvulpe-0309951216180001@ri4i001.i4i.org>" date="3019133541" seqno="10623">
From: mvulpe@i4i.org (Michel Vulpe)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Where can I find HTML DTD?
Date: 3 Sep 1995 16:12:21 GMT
Organization: Infrastructures for Information Inc.
Message-ID: \<mvulpe-0309951216180001@ri4i001.i4i.org>
References: <424to9$hgu@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>

here it is

\<!SGML  "ISO 8879:1986"
--
        Document Type Definition for the HyperText Markup Language 
        as used by the World Wide Web application (HTML DTD).

        NOTE: This is a definition of HTML with respect to
        SGML, and assumes an understanding of SGML terms.

        If you find bugs in this DTD or find it does not compile
        under some circumstances please mail www-bug@info.cern.ch
--

CHARSET
         BASESET  "ISO 646:1983//CHARSET
                   International Reference Version (IRV)//ESC 2/5 4/0"
         DESCSET  0   9   UNUSED
                  9   2   9
                  11  2   UNUSED
                  13  1   13
                  14  18  UNUSED
                  32  95  32
                  127 1   UNUSED
     BASESET   "ISO Registration Number 100//CHARSET
                ECMA-94 Right Part of Latin Alphabet Nr. 1//ESC 2/13 4/1"
     DESCSET   128 32 UNUSED
               160 95 32
               255  1 UNUSED


CAPACITY        SGMLREF
                TOTALCAP        150000
                GRPCAP          150000
  
SCOPE    DOCUMENT
SYNTAX   
         SHUNCHAR CONTROLS 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
                           19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 127 255
         BASESET  "ISO 646:1983//CHARSET
                   International Reference Version (IRV)//ESC 2/5 4/0"
         DESCSET  0 128 0
         FUNCTION RE          13
                  RS          10
                  SPACE       32
                  TAB SEPCHAR  9
         NAMING   LCNMSTRT ""
                  UCNMSTRT ""
                  LCNMCHAR ".-"
                  UCNMCHAR ".-"
                  NAMECASE GENERAL YES
                           ENTITY  NO
         DELIM    GENERAL  SGMLREF
                  SHORTREF SGMLREF
         NAMES    SGMLREF
         QUANTITY SGMLREF
                  NAMELEN  34
                  TAGLVL   100
                  LITLEN   1024
                  GRPGTCNT 150
                  GRPCNT   64                   

FEATURES
  MINIMIZE
    DATATAG  NO
    OMITTAG  NO
    RANK     NO
    SHORTTAG NO
  LINK
    SIMPLE   NO
    IMPLICIT NO
    EXPLICIT NO
  OTHER
    CONCUR   NO
    SUBDOC   NO
    FORMAL   YES
  APPINFO    NONE
>

\<!DOCTYPE HTML [
\<!-- Jul 1 93 -->
\<!--    Regarding clause 6.1, SGML Document:

        [1] SGML document = SGML document entity,
            (SGML subdocument entity |
            SGML text entity | non-SGML data entity)*

        The role of SGML document entity is filled by this DTD,
        followed by the conventional HTML data stream.
-->

\<!-- DTD definitions -->

\<!ENTITY % heading "H1|H2|H3|H4|H5|H6" >
\<!ENTITY % list " UL | OL | DIR | MENU ">
\<!ENTITY % literal " XMP | LISTING ">

\<!ENTITY % headelement
         " TITLE | NEXTID |ISINDEX" >

\<!ENTITY % bodyelement
         "P | HR | %heading |
         %list | DL | ADDRESS | PRE | BLOCKQUOTE
        | %literal">

\<!ENTITY % oldstyle "%headelement | %bodyelement | #PCDATA">

\<!ENTITY % URL "CDATA"
        -- The term URL means a CDATA attribute
           whose value is a Uniform Resource Locator,
           as defined. (A URN may also be usable here when defined.)
        -->

\<!ENTITY % linkattributes
        "NAME NMTOKEN #IMPLIED
        HREF %URL;  #IMPLIED
        REL CDATA #IMPLIED -- forward relationship type --
        REV CDATA #IMPLIED -- reversed relationship type
                              to referent data:

                                PARENT CHILD, SIBLING, NEXT, TOP,
                                DEFINITION, UPDATE, ORIGINAL etc. --

        URN CDATA #IMPLIED -- universal resource number --

        TITLE CDATA #IMPLIED -- advisory only --

        METHODS NAMES #IMPLIED -- supported public methods of the object:
                                        TEXTSEARCH, GET, HEAD, ... --

        ">


\<!-- Document Element -->

\<!ELEMENT HTML O O  (( HEAD | BODY | %oldstyle )*, PLAINTEXT?)>

\<!ELEMENT HEAD - -  ( TITLE?  & ISINDEX?  & NEXTID?  & LINK* 
                              & BASE?)>

\<!ELEMENT TITLE - -  RCDATA
          -- The TITLE element is not considered part of the flow of text.
             It should be displayed, for example as the page header or
             window title.
          -->

\<!ELEMENT ISINDEX - O EMPTY
          -- WWW clients should offer the option to perform a search on
             documents containing ISINDEX.
          -->
 
\<!ELEMENT NEXTID - O EMPTY>
\<!ATTLIST NEXTID N NAME #REQUIRED
          -- The number should be a name suitable for use
             for the ID of a new element. When used, the value
             has its numeric part incremented. EG Z67 becomes Z68
          -->
\<!ELEMENT LINK - O EMPTY>
\<!ATTLIST LINK
        %linkattributes>
        
\<!ELEMENT BASE - O EMPTY    -- Reference context for URLS -->
\<!ATTLIST BASE

        HREF %URL; #IMPLIED

        >
\<!ENTITY % inline "EM | TT | STRONG | B | I | U |
                        CODE | SAMP | KBD | KEY | VAR | DFN | CITE "
        >

\<!ELEMENT (%inline;) - - (#PCDATA)>

\<!ENTITY % text "#PCDATA | IMG | %inline;">

\<!ENTITY % htext "A | %text"    -- Plus links, no structure -->

\<!ENTITY % stext                -- as htext but also nested structure --
                        "P | HR | %list | DL | ADDRESS
                        | PRE | BLOCKQUOTE
                        | %literal | %htext">


\<!ELEMENT BODY - -  (%bodyelement|%htext;)*>


\<!ELEMENT A     - -  (%text)>
\<!ATTLIST A
        %linkattributes;
        >

\<!ELEMENT IMG    - O EMPTY --  Embedded image -->
\<!ATTLIST IMG
        SRC %URL;  #IMPLIED     -- URL of document to embed --
        >


\<!ELEMENT P     - O EMPTY -- separates paragraphs -->
\<!ELEMENT HR    - O EMPTY -- horizontal rule -->

\<!ELEMENT ( %heading )  - -  (%htext;)+>

\<!ELEMENT DL    - -  (DT | DD | %stext;)*>
\<!--    Content should match ((DT,(%htext;)+)+,(DD,(%stext;)+))
        But mixed content is messy.  -Dan Connolly
  -->
 
\<!ELEMENT DT    - O EMPTY>
\<!ELEMENT DD    - O EMPTY>

\<!ELEMENT (UL|OL) - -  (%htext;|LI|P)+>
\<!ELEMENT (DIR|MENU) - -  (%htext;|LI)+>
\<!--    Content should match ((LI,(%htext;)+)+)
        But mixed content is messy.
  -->
\<!ATTLIST (%list)
        COMPACT NAME #IMPLIED -- COMPACT, etc.--
        >

\<!ELEMENT LI    - O EMPTY>

\<!ELEMENT BLOCKQUOTE - - (%htext;|P)+
        -- for quoting some other source -->

\<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - (%htext;|P)+>

\<!ELEMENT PRE - - (#PCDATA|%inline|A|P)+>
\<!ATTLIST PRE
        WIDTH NUMBER #implied
        >

\<!-- Mnemonic character entities. -->
\<!ENTITY AElig "\&#198;"  -- capital AE diphthong (ligature) -->
\<!ENTITY Aacute "\&#193;" -- capital A, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY Acirc "\&#194;"  -- capital A, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY Agrave "\&#192;" -- capital A, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY Aring "\&#197;"  -- capital A, ring -->
\<!ENTITY Atilde "\&#195;" -- capital A, tilde -->
\<!ENTITY Auml "\&#196;"   -- capital A, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY Ccedil "\&#199;" -- capital C, cedilla -->
\<!ENTITY ETH "\&#208;"    -- capital Eth, Icelandic -->
\<!ENTITY Eacute "\&#201;" -- capital E, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY Ecirc "\&#202;"  -- capital E, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY Egrave "\&#200;" -- capital E, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY Euml "\&#203;"   -- capital E, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY Iacute "\&#205;" -- capital I, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY Icirc "\&#206;"  -- capital I, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY Igrave "\&#204;" -- capital I, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY Iuml "\&#207;"   -- capital I, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY Ntilde "\&#209;" -- capital N, tilde -->
\<!ENTITY Oacute "\&#211;" -- capital O, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY Ocirc "\&#212;"  -- capital O, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY Ograve "\&#210;" -- capital O, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY Oslash "\&#216;" -- capital O, slash -->
\<!ENTITY Otilde "\&#213;" -- capital O, tilde -->
\<!ENTITY Ouml "\&#214;"   -- capital O, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY THORN "\&#222;"  -- capital THORN, Icelandic -->
\<!ENTITY Uacute "\&#218;" -- capital U, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY Ucirc "\&#219;"  -- capital U, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY Ugrave "\&#217;" -- capital U, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY Uuml "\&#220;"   -- capital U, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY Yacute "\&#221;" -- capital Y, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY aacute "\&#225;" -- small a, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY acirc "\&#226;"  -- small a, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY aelig "\&#230;"  -- small ae diphthong (ligature) -->
\<!ENTITY agrave "\&#224;" -- small a, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY amp "\&#38;"     -- ampersand -->
\<!ENTITY aring "\&#229;"  -- small a, ring -->
\<!ENTITY atilde "\&#227;" -- small a, tilde -->
\<!ENTITY auml "\&#228;"   -- small a, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY ccedil "\&#231;" -- small c, cedilla -->
\<!ENTITY eacute "\&#233;" -- small e, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY ecirc "\&#234;"  -- small e, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY egrave "\&#232;" -- small e, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY eth "\&#240;"    -- small eth, Icelandic -->
\<!ENTITY euml "\&#235;"   -- small e, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY gt "\&#62;"      -- greater than -->
\<!ENTITY iacute "\&#237;" -- small i, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY icirc "\&#238;"  -- small i, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY igrave "\&#236;" -- small i, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY iuml "\&#239;"   -- small i, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY lt "\&#60;"      -- less than -->
\<!ENTITY nbsp "\&#32;"    --  should be NON_BREAKING space -->
\<!ENTITY ntilde "\&#241;" -- small n, tilde -->
\<!ENTITY oacute "\&#243;" -- small o, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY ocirc "\&#244;"  -- small o, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY ograve "\&#242;" -- small o, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY oslash "\&#248;" -- small o, slash -->
\<!ENTITY otilde "\&#245;" -- small o, tilde -->
\<!ENTITY ouml "\&#246;"   -- small o, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY szlig "\&#223;"  -- small sharp s, German (sz ligature) -->
\<!ENTITY thorn "\&#254;"  -- small thorn, Icelandic -->
\<!ENTITY uacute "\&#250;" -- small u, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY ucirc "\&#251;"  -- small u, circumflex accent -->
\<!ENTITY ugrave "\&#249;" -- small u, grave accent -->
\<!ENTITY uuml "\&#252;"   -- small u, dieresis or umlaut mark -->
\<!ENTITY yacute "\&#253;" -- small y, acute accent -->
\<!ENTITY yuml "\&#255;"   -- small y, dieresis or umlaut mark -->

\<!-- deprecated elements -->

\<!ELEMENT (%literal) - -  CDATA>

\<!ELEMENT PLAINTEXT - O EMPTY>

\<!-- Local Variables: -->
\<!-- mode: sgml -->
\<!-- compile-command: "sgmls -s -p " -->
\<!-- end: -->
]>
















In article <424to9$hgu@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>, manu@cs.ualberta.ca (Manuela
Schoene) wrote:

> I need an HTML DTD for my work.
> Can somebody tell me where I can find it???
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> Manuela

-- 
Infrastructures for Information Inc
330 Dupont, #302
Toronto,Ont., M5R 1V9
416.920.6489
</message>
<message id="<42divc$9m9@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>" date="3019165100" seqno="10624">
From: John Lamp \<John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: A Book Review on SGML
Date: 4 Sep 1995 00:58:20 GMT
Organization: University of Tasmania, Department of Computer Science
Message-ID: <42divc$9m9@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk> \<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> \<AC69589096686615@pendred.demon.co.uk>

justin@pendred.demon.co.uk (Justin Cormack) wrote:

>Unicode... no idea. Found the web and ftp sites very unhelpful. There are
>people working on using Unicode for SGML, but converting the two I dont
>know.

There is a link to the Unicode consortium at 
http://lamp.cs.utas.edu.au/net.html

Cheers
John
--
   _--_|\\             John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
  /      \\                 Phone: 002 20 2375 - Fax: 002 20 2913
  \\_.--._/                       email: John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au
        v <--<<          http://lamp.cs.utas.edu.au/jw_lamp.html


</message>
<message id="<42djjj$9m9@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>" date="3019165747" seqno="10625">
From: John Lamp \<John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: 4 Sep 1995 01:09:07 GMT
Organization: University of Tasmania, Department of Computer Science
Message-ID: <42djjj$9m9@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com>

Gail Sullivan \<gail@telepath.com> wrote:

>Concern #2: What's the deal with WAIS? We notice that some sites 
>utilize a WAIS database? Is it compatible with SGML or redundant?

WAIS is based around the Z39.50 information search and retrieval 
protocol engine. It was originally designed for use with bibliographic 
databases, but SGML text works well with it.

You can find useful links concerning Z39.50 and SGML at 
http://lamp.cs.utas.edu.au/net.html

Cheers
John
--
   _--_|\\             John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
  /      \\                 Phone: 002 20 2375 - Fax: 002 20 2913
  \\_.--._/                       email: John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au
        v <--<<          http://lamp.cs.utas.edu.au/jw_lamp.html


</message>
<message id="<DED9sw.1wp@cerc.wvu.edu>" date="3019182943" seqno="10626">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: sp memory mgmt
Message-ID: \<DED9sw.1wp@cerc.wvu.edu>
From: fuchs@cerc.wvu.edu (Matthew Fuchs)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 05:55:43 GMT
Sender: news@cerc.wvu.edu
Organization: Concurrent Engineering Research Center

For those interested, James Clark has assured me that sp does clean up
after itself, and can handle multiple documents.  I look forward to using
it.

Matthew Fuchs
</message>
<message id="<42emfp$khi@news.Belgium.EU.net>" date="3019201465" seqno="10627">
From: Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: WordPerfect - to SGML
Date: 4 Sep 1995 11:04:25 GMT
Organization: SEMA Group Belgium
Message-ID: <42emfp$khi@news.Belgium.EU.net>
References: <40haq0$fre$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com> <4249j0$7ar@news.Belgium.EU.net>

In my posting <4249j0$7ar@news.Belgium.EU.net>, I wrote:
>...
>We did conversions of 300 to 1000 page documents on a Sun 2.
>...

I meant, of course, on a Sun SparcStation 2.

------------------------------------------------------
Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Sema Group Belgium - Stallestraat 96 - B-1180 Brussels
------------------------------------------------------


</message>
<message id="<1995Sep4.141645.10421@relay.acadiau.ca>" date="3019213005" seqno="10628">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: 911288c@dragon.acadiau.ca (EDwin Chung)
Subject: DATA ??
Message-ID: <1995Sep4.141645.10421@relay.acadiau.ca>
Sender: news@relay.acadiau.ca
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 14:16:45 GMT


hi, anyone can help me how to define DATA ??

DATA /* characters */ 		---> [a-zA-Z] ???

In TEI guidelines

/* attribute values, ala TEI guidelines */
NUMBER 		/* [0-9]+ */
NAME 		/* [a-z][a-z0-9.-]* */
NMTOKEN 	/* [a-z0-9.-]+ */
	
LITERAL 	/* anything, in quotes */	---> What is anything in ""

what is the different between NAME NWTOKEN and LITERAL ??

Edwin

</message>
<message id="<42f9i7$27t@ruby.ora.com>" date="3019220999" seqno="10629">
From: terry@ruby.ora.com (Terry Allen)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: NONSGML chars and parsing
Date: 4 Sep 1995 12:29:59 -0400
Organization: O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Message-ID: <42f9i7$27t@ruby.ora.com>

This question arises wrt making Unicode the document charset for HTML.
Unicode has lots of unassigned code points.  These "characters" are
evidently NONSGML characters when the whole range of Unicode is 
declared as the document charset.

        4.207 non-SGML character:  A character in the document character
        set whose coded representation never occurs in an SGML entity.

        4.209 NONSGML:  The class of non-SGML characters, defined by the
        document character set.

Those definitions are introduced in the Handbook by the nonnormative text:

        One character class is reserved for "non-SGML characters":  those
        which do not occur in SGML entities and which therefore are not
        encountered by the SGML parser.

But 

        4.267 reportable markup error:  A failure of the document to 
        conform to this IS when it is parsed with respect to the active
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
        document and link types, other than a semantic error (such as
        a GI that does not accurately connote the element type) or:
           a) ...
           f) the occurrence of a non-SGML character ...

How can a parser that doesn't encounter a character report its occurrence
as an RME?

Regards,

Terry Allen  (terry@ora.com)   O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Editor, Digital Media Group    101 Morris St.
                               Sebastopol, Calif., 95472

A Davenport Group sponsor.  For information on the Davenport 
  Group see ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/README.html
        or  http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html
Current HTML 2.0 spec:  
  ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-html-spec-05.txt

-- 
Terry Allen  (terry@ora.com)   O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Editor, Digital Media Group    101 Morris St.
                               Sebastopol, Calif., 95472

A Davenport Group sponsor.  For information on the Davenport
  Group see ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/README.html
        or  http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html

Current HTML 2.0 spec:  
  ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-html-spec-05.txt

</message>
<message id="<19950904T230216Z@naggum.no>" date="3019244536" seqno="10631">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: NONSGML chars and parsing
Date: 04 Sep 1995 23:02:16 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950904T230216Z@naggum.no>
References: <42f9i7$27t@ruby.ora.com>

[Terry Allen]

|   This question arises wrt making Unicode the document charset for HTML.
|   Unicode has lots of unassigned code points.  These "characters" are
|   evidently NONSGML characters when the whole range of Unicode is
|   declared as the document charset.

this is a little confused.  the "whole range of Unicode" would be the base
character set, upon which the document character set is the described
character set.  it is far from obvious that one would want to mark any
characters in ISO 10646 as UNUSED in a base character set -- the standard
has cancer and it will grow uncontrollably as each trivial little script
wants to have their characters in there.  recently, the whole Hangul
section was reorganized.  we used to be able to trust the smaller character
set standards to be reasonably stable, but when you try to encompass the
whole universe of character sets, the net result _must_ be unstable.
therefore, it would be wise not to mark any of the 2,147,483,648 characters
as UNUSED except those in the range 128 through 159.

|           4.207 non-SGML character:  A character in the document character
|           set whose coded representation never occurs in an SGML entity.
|   
|           4.209 NONSGML:  The class of non-SGML characters, defined by the
|           document character set.

note that this actually defines a property of an "SGML entity".

|   Those definitions are introduced in the Handbook by the nonnormative text:
|   
|           One character class is reserved for "non-SGML characters":  those
|           which do not occur in SGML entities and which therefore are not
|           encountered by the SGML parser.
|   
|   But 
|   
|           4.267 reportable markup error:  A failure of the document to 
|           conform to this IS when it is parsed with respect to the active
|                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|           document and link types, other than a semantic error (such as
|           a GI that does not accurately connote the element type) or:
|              a) ...
|              f) the occurrence of a non-SGML character ...

the above annotation ("nonnormative" doesn't exist -- there's "normative"
and "informative" in standards, and Goldfarb's Handbook has "annotations")
is not sufficiently precise.  non-SGML characters do not _by_definition_
occur in SGML entities -- therefore it is an error if a non-SGML character
occurs in what was supposed to be an SGML entity, but obviously isn't.

#\<Erik 3019244536>
-- 
even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<4272uc$9tr@hopper.acm.org>" date="3018952076" seqno="10632">
From: murray@ACM.ORG (GERRY MURRAY)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Math
Date: 1 Sep 1995 13:47:56 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <4272uc$9tr@hopper.acm.org>
Reply-To: murray@ACM.ORG

Morning folks!

Anyone using any of the current wordprocessor `add-on' or
upgrades having success (limited or otherwise) in having their
embedded (usually Microsoft Equation 1.0 / 2.0) ***equations***
'written out' or 'saved as' something remotely resembling SGMl or even
EQN ???
Since these items are usually `objects' I think I'm hosed ...buy hey! ..
never hoits to ask!

:-)

Gerry

</message>
<message id="<427hru$arc@hopper.acm.org>" date="3018967358" seqno="10633">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Entity namespace pollution
Date: 1 Sep 1995 18:02:38 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <427hru$arc@hopper.acm.org>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk> \<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> \<AC69589096686615@pendred.demon.co.uk>,<424c67$mea@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article <424c67$mea@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
 djbpitt+@pitt.edu (David J. Birnbaum) writes:

>The 8-character namelength is so clearly a bad idea that one is moved to 
>wonder why it was adopted in the first place. Does anyone know?

20-20 hindsight makes many things clear.  10 years ago, there were few if
any programming language designers involved in the design of SGML.  The
SGML designers were quite concerned that SGML be implementable on small
computers (as small was defined 20 years ago), and did not have the
insight gained by programming language designers over many years.  (I
can remember when FORTRAN had the same 8-character limit, and BASIC allowed
only one character.)  Do not judge the SGML designers harshly; in order to
learn from past mistakes, one has to have access to the corporate knowledge
(= "history") that records those mistakes.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<427mfa$arc@hopper.acm.org>" date="3018972074" seqno="10634">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Any good books on structured SGML programming
Date: 1 Sep 1995 19:21:14 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <427mfa$arc@hopper.acm.org>
References: \<donturn-1208952012340001@indigo.skiles.gatech.edu> <40ofij$hgq@amhux3.amherst.edu> <410s2q$c25@athena.itl.saic.com> <412e57$jhl@hopper.acm.org> \<DDv9xn.Cu2@world.std.com>,<4260d3$2uj@athena.itl.saic.com>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article <4260d3$2uj@athena.itl.saic.com>,
 robert_agnew@cpqm.saic.com (Bob Agnew) writes:
>jbottoms@world.std.com (John W Bottoms) wrote:

>>Then I would have to argue that C is not an executable language. It is
>>a description of a linguistic instance that can be converted to an
>>executable. 
>
>>Dave, I know you and I have not come to an understanding on this (yet?)
>>but rather define something in terms of an existing acronym (CLL, DDL)
>>(or was that tongue in cheek?) let's talk about capabilities. The difficulty
>>in saying what an SGML instance can do is that it gets translated first
>>and there is no standard for what the translation does. I can envision
>>an DTD for a programming language. So is that DTD executable? No, no more
>>so than a C copy of K\&R is executable. But that is misleading to people
>>who don't understand the scope of difference between a DTD and an instance.
>>Can an SGML instance be executable? Yes, I think so. Hey, some C translation
>>units are not! (structs for instance.)
>
>Soryy I've been so lax in responding. Been off implementing an SGML
>parser and HyTime engine. I agree pretty much except that the
>semantics of C is included in the language spec and state what results
>should be generated for each coonstruct. In SGML there are no such
>semantics; these are known only to the application. It is in this
>sense that SGML is said to be an enableing technology.

C is a language with a specified syntax and a rather thoroughly specified
semantics.  It does allow for extension, and anyone who writes C programs
uses extensions.  The extension mechanism is the subroutine call.  I consider
this truly an extension mechanism because the subroutines known to the
C compiler/linker/loader system need not be writeable in C, much less be
written in C.  C comes with a _large_ collection of standard subroutines--
standard extensions--that every C programmer expects to be available, most
C programming systems come with nonstandard subroutines added (this is one
way the providers get product differentiation, as well as lock in users),
and most C systems provide that user-created non-C subroutines can be added as
well.  Without these extensions and extensionability, C would not be the
popular programming language that it is.

Note that every time we declare a variable in C, or define a subroutine and
declare its name, we have extended the basic C language.

SGML is a language with a specified syntax and a rather sparsely specified
semantics.  It does allow for extension, and addition of more semantics to
the basic syntacical forms.  The extension mechanism (I'm simplifying by
not mentioning entities) is the element type definition and tagging syntax.

Every time we declare a new element type in SGML, we have extended both its
syntax, but the SGML-prescribed (and SGML-specifiable) semantics is quite
limited.  The syntax is extended because we now allow a new name in
tags, a new combination of attribute specifications in start-tags using that
new name, and a new and restricted pattern of what combinations of subelements
can occur in the content of elements of this new type.  I see this as rather
analagous to the adding of a new subroutine name and specifying the number and
types of arguments in C.

The limited semantics of SGML tells us that elements are related to one
another by a hierarchical relationship; that some additional relationsips
exist (such as those determined by ID IDREF pairs).  Not much in the way
of semantics, but a bit.

I think a more illustrative comparison might be made comparing an SGML
document to a relational data set.  A relational database consists of one
or more tables of data (table = set of records, each record in the table
having the same format and interpretation--as integer, double-precision
"real", character string, etc.) and links between some fields of some records.
Analagously, an SGML document consists of a typed hierarchy of records; the
hierarchy terminates in character strings, often of unspecified length.

We define a useful relational database by prescribing the names of the
tables we wish to have in the database, and by prescribing the names and
format/limited semantics (data type)/size of each field in the records of
each table.  This is how we make a useful relational database. A relational
data set is a specific collection of tables, with data in place in records,
ready to be used.  Analagously, we define a useful SGML document type by
prescribing the names of types of elements we wish to have in our data
sets, along with what types of subelements may or must occur, and in what
order(s), along with where raw character data may occur--i.e., we create
a DTD.  A data set/document is a specific collection of elements and raw
character data segments which conforms to this DTD.

In addition to the linking between tables, there is a certain amount of
semantics embodied in the data type specifications for the tables of a
relational data base--enough to permit the definition of a useful standard
query language.  One might expect a standard interchange mechanism as well,
but none seems to have come about in the relational database community.
Nor is there a sandard report-writer language.  It's easy to query the
database in a system-independent manner; not so easy to move the database
from one system to another and provide well-formatted displays of the
data in a system-independent manner.

In addition to the linking between elements, by position and ID/IDREF pairs,
there is but one data type:  character string.  Nonetheless, this is enough
to permit the definiton of a useful standard query language--but SGML doesn't
have one yet.  On the other hand, we do have a standard interchange mechanism,
and we have just gotten what is hoped to be (among other things) a standard
"report writer" language (DSSSL).  After all, in database terminology,
displaying some or all of the data in a formatted manner is "writing a
report".  It's not easy yet to search for information in an SGML document
in a system-independent manner, but it is easy to move the database from
one system to another in a system-independent manner, and we're moving toward
system-independent formatted data display.

Note that in both relational database and typed hierarchical database
situations, the real "semantic role" (this thing is a part number, that
is an explanation for humans, that other is a the date the part was
ordered) is not prescribed by the database system, but is used by the
humans involved who decide what they will do with the data.  Other
applications embody those decisions.  I would argue that even a C
program has no intrinsic information about the semantic roles of the
data it gets as input, nor of its internal data, nor of the data it
puts out.  It only knows the data types--of which C and relational
databases have several, while SGML has only one.

Hope this helps rather than confuses.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<427n5s$arc@hopper.acm.org>" date="3018972796" seqno="10635">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Tags
Date: 1 Sep 1995 19:33:16 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <427n5s$arc@hopper.acm.org>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

It occurs to me that SGML element types are analgous to programming
language (e.g., C) variables:  SGML doesnt prescribe what element
types you must use just as C doesn't prescribe what variables and
functions you must use.  Is a DTD then analagous to a ".h" file?

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<DEE4nM.1qy@dcs.gla.ac.uk>" date="3019222930" seqno="10636">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: Peter Flynn \<pflynn@www.ucc.ie>
Subject: Re: Encoding a '>'?
Message-ID: \<DEE4nM.1qy@dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Sender: news@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Network News)
Organization: Usenet Labs BOZON Detector Facility
References: <4222cp$qne$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> \<dwb-3008951245490001@caas17.butler.brown.edu> <9508302147.AA16151@fly.hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 17:02:10 GMT

Len Bullard \<cbullard@hiwaay.net> wrote:
>[David W. Baker]
>
>|   However, the entities to use would be: \&gt; will indicate ">" and \&lt;
>|   will indicate "<".
>
>While you are at it, remember \&amp; That gets the ampersand and keeps the
>system from trying to resolve a character entity.

These three are enough at the moment to put an otherwise ASCII file into
what might be called SGML "PASTHRU" mode insofar as HTML is concerned: ie
the file will display without gagging the browser.

///Peter

</message>
<message id="<428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org>" date="3018996293" seqno="10637">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: 2 Sep 1995 02:04:53 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com>,<809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>,
 Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk> writes:
>Gail and colleagues,
>	I have been in a very similar situation to you so I hope I can
>tackle your plea, though I doubt if it's going to be optimistic :-(.  I'm
>not an SGML expert, so I hope those who are will gently correct me where 
>I make mistakes.

>Normally, of course, there would be an application program that used this
>list to do what you wanted - but that could be many things.  You could search
>it for all the staff in WIDGETS, automatically mail everyone junk each
>week, produce a typeset version of the staff list, translate this into HTML,
>etc.  So there is, unfortunately no generic application program :-(

Quite so--just as there is no one program that does all the things you might
want to do with a relational data base.  The RDBMS handles storage and simple
queries, but serious applications usually use other programs that pound the
RDB via the RDBMS APIs.

>	My impression from the SGML community is that problems fall into the 
>following types:
>	- you need to manage your information in a way that has already been
>done elsewhere, and you can use an existing DTD into which you can squeeze 
>your problem.

Often you'll find that by adding more customization to your DTD you'll make
the resulting data sets even more useful, hence more valuable.

>	- you have a novel information problem, or a problem which is 
>business-critical.  In this case you may find a (SGML) software house
>who will help you construct a DTD, and a set of tools to create documents.
>You will presumably also have to ask them to write application programs to
>render your documents.  It is VERY important to realise that every ELEMENT 
>in a DTD will need a chunk of code written to process it in the application
>program.  I'm open to correction, but I would assume that for almost
>every DTD, at least one completely new application program has had to be 
>written.

Only if you consider very high-level things "programs".  There are good
translators out there (e.g., OmniMark) which can translate using a list
of translating rules that, while I agree are programs, are generally orders
of magnitude easier to write or have written as compared to, say, C programs.
The output of such a translator can be fed into a general-purpose formatter
such as TeK or MS Word, and out comes the formatted display/presentation.

>                         This linkage of the DTD to application programs
>is not appreciated by newcomers, who (like I did) think there will be some
>sort of tools 'out there'.

Too many varied applications are possible.

>	- you have a novel application, but you either don't have money,
>or, like me, you want to *explore* SGML before you commit.

Free tools for complicated problems are slow to be developed.  Most of us
don't have the resources to put that kind of time in without reimbursement.

>	A: You want to be able to create and edit a DTD with something
>		more sophisticated than a text editor.  (All my DTD's
>		are done by typing).  The (commercial) SGML Companion 
>		announced a few days ago on this list appears to do this.

There are other tools as well.  On the other hand, a simple DTD is as easy
to learn to write as a simple BASIC program.  And if your DTD is complex,
the login built into it will be complex and difficult to come up with
regardless of your tool.  The logical design is the hard part, not the
syntax of writing it down.

>	C: You want to create ('edit') a document using a DTD.  I have no idea
>		whether there is a generic tool that does this.  Presumably
>		most widely-used  DTDs have at least one editor.

There are several commercial editors out there that adapt to arbitrary
DTDs.  I don't have a complete list at my fingertips; I saw a pretty good
list in another article recently.  There is also a popular combination of
gussied-up EMACS and SP or SGMLS that's all public domain.  Someone else
no doubt will post the references.  Since it often seems to pay off to "roll
your own" DTD, a single-DTD editor has a _very_ limited market.

>	E: You want to 'browse' your document to make it easier to understand.
>		This is, of course, application-dependent, but I can visualise
>		two generic approaches.  One is to reformat it so that the
>		tags are replaced by appropriate typography, the attributes
>		are neatly nested, etc.  The other is to display the
>		structure of the document graphically (SGML is basically
>		hierarchical) and to be able to open/close elements by, say,
>		clicking on them.  I am not aware of any 'free' offering here.

There is none free, but several commercial editors do both of these things.

>	My conclusion, therefore, is that if you have a new application you
>will have to either spend money, or time, or both.

Almost certainly--by definition, a _new_ application hasn't been done before.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<19950905T024614Z@naggum.no>" date="3019257974" seqno="10638">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Tags
Date: 05 Sep 1995 02:46:14 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950905T024614Z@naggum.no>
References: <427n5s$arc@hopper.acm.org>

[Dave Peterson]

|   It occurs to me that SGML element types are analgous to programming
|   language (e.g., C) variables: SGML doesnt prescribe what element types
|   you must use just as C doesn't prescribe what variables and functions
|   you must use.  Is a DTD then analagous to a ".h" file?

only in an extremely well-written C program.  :)

#\<Erik 3019257974>
-- 
even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<19950905T025202Z@naggum.no>" date="3019258322" seqno="10639">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Encoding a '>'?
Date: 05 Sep 1995 02:52:02 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950905T025202Z@naggum.no>
References: <4222cp$qne$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> \<dwb-3008951245490001@caas17.butler.brown.edu> <9508302147.AA16151@fly.hiwaay.net> \<DEE4nM.1qy@dcs.gla.ac.uk>

[Peter Flynn]

|   These three are enough at the moment to put an otherwise ASCII file into
|   what might be called SGML "PASTHRU" mode insofar as HTML is concerned: ie
|   the file will display without gagging the browser.

but should you encounter a "browser" that accepts marked sections (or one
implemented with some concern for quality and robustness), you also need to
look out for the three-character sequence "\]]>".

#\<Erik 3019258322>
-- 
even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<42giut$orn@mojo.eng.umd.edu>" date="3019263389" seqno="10640">
From: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Charles B. Robey)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Tags
Date: 5 Sep 1995 04:16:29 GMT
Organization: Project GLUE, University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Message-ID: <42giut$orn@mojo.eng.umd.edu>
References: <427n5s$arc@hopper.acm.org>

davep@ACM.ORG wrote:
: It occurs to me that SGML element types are analgous to programming
: language (e.g., C) variables:  SGML doesnt prescribe what element
: types you must use just as C doesn't prescribe what variables and
: functions you must use.  Is a DTD then analagous to a ".h" file?

The following analogy, drawn from computing, seems valid to me.  SGML
appears tome to be analogous to the method of Backus-Naur coding of
input rules, and a DTD then would be a particular coding for a
particular output.  A formatter would then be analogous to a compiler
(like a C compiler), and a formatted, printable output would be
analogous to an executable.  Right?

: Dave Peterson
: SGMLWorks!

: davep@acm.org

--
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<SCHULZE.95Sep5064008@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de>" date="3019264808" seqno="10641">
From: schulze@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de (Bruno Maximilian Schulze)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: DATA ??
Date: 05 Sep 1995 04:40:08 GMT
Organization: IMS, University of Stuttgart, Germany
Message-ID: \<SCHULZE.95Sep5064008@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de>
References: <1995Sep4.141645.10421@relay.acadiau.ca>
Reply-To: schulze@ims.uni-stuttgart.de
In-reply-to: 911288c@dragon.acadiau.ca's message of Mon, 4 Sep 1995 14:16:45 GMT

>>>>> "EDwin" == EDwin Chung <911288c@dragon.acadiau.ca> writes:


    EDwin> hi, anyone can help me how to define DATA ??

    EDwin> DATA /* characters */ ---> [a-zA-Z] ???

    EDwin> In TEI guidelines

    EDwin> /* attribute values, ala TEI guidelines */ 
    EDwin> NUMBER 		/* [0-9]+ */
    EDwin> NAME 		/* [a-z][a-z0-9.-]* */ 
    EDwin> NMTOKEN 		/* [a-z0-9.-]+ */
	
    EDwin> LITERAL 		/* anything, in quotes */ ---> What is
anything in ""

    EDwin> what is the different between NAME NWTOKEN and LITERAL ??

Well, LITERAL can also be expressed by a regular expression:

LITERAL			/* "[^"]*" */

Maybe, you don't understand regular expressions. Here is a short
explanation:

NUMBER :    a sequence of 1 or more digits 
NAME   :    any item beginning with a lowercase alphabetic character 
	    followed by a sequence of 0 or more lowercase alphanumeric
	    characters
NMTOKEN  :  a sequence of 1 or more characters (lowercase alphanumeric
	    chars. plus dot and hyphen)
LITERAL  :  any string enclosed in double quotes (my regular
	    expression doesn't allow nested double quotes)

Hope this helps.

Best,

Max
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno Maximilian Schulze           | Institute of Natural Language Processing 
Tel:  +49-711-121-1367             | University of Stuttgart
Fax:  +49-711-121-1366             | Azenbergstr. 12
email:schulze@ims.uni-stuttgart.de | D-70174 Stuttgart, Germany
URL: http://www.ims.uni-stuttgart.de/IMS.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<42h14a$lc2@news.Belgium.EU.net>" date="3019277898" seqno="10642">
From: Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Opinions on Microsoft SGML Author for Word
Date: 5 Sep 1995 08:18:18 GMT
Organization: SEMA Group Belgium
Message-ID: <42h14a$lc2@news.Belgium.EU.net>
References: <41dic8$eae@larry.infi.net>
To: pmurray@news.infi.net

pmurray@news.infi.net (Philip C. Murray) wrote:
>I'm currently writing a review of SGML Author for Word and 
>would like to receive:
> 
>1. Additional opinions about how good it is (or is not).
> 
>2. Opinions about what applications or environments might be 
>be best/worst served by SGML Author -- as opposed to SGML 
>context-sensitive editors like SoftQuad Author/Editor and 
>Arbortext Adept Editor.
> 
..
>
>We understand that several of SGML Author's deficiencies 
>will be remedied in coming versions, so I would like to focus 
>on fundamental product philosophy -- for example, post-process
>conversion of word-processor styles vs. interactive markup -- 
>more than on performance of the current version.


Here's how I have perceived the "fundamental product philosophy"
in my experience with SGML Author for Word. For some readers,
it may be helpful to describe first in short how the product works.

There are two operational parts in SGML Author: the "System Administrator"
part and the User part.

The System Administrator part consists of the "Author" application
which enables to build the mappings between styles and structure.
Indeed, on the Word side, you have paragraph styles and character styles;
on the SGML side, you have SGML documents with their hierarchy of elements.
You have to map all the possible contextual occurences of each element 
to a particular style. This has to be a one-to-one correspondence. If
the DTD shows any recursiveness, you provide mappings for a reasonable number
of levels. You create and edit such a mapping file in the Author application.
In addition, you write a comprehensive "authoring guide" explaining the 
structure your authors are expected to produce using this elaborate set
of styles.
Above all, you make a specific Word template and build a "template initialization"
file (one of those .INI files) holding several kinds of information :
  - what "legal" styles are available within the current context
    (i.e., within the current style);
  - which macro (if any) should be run if one of those legal styles is applied;
  - style hierarchies, to be used with the "promote/demote" buttons;
  - default styles to be used with template macro's;
  - for each generic identifiers, the names of their defined attributes;
  - for each attribute name, the type (e.g., IMPLIED), the data type (e.g.,
    CHOICE) and the possible values.
As "normal" emphasis cannot be mapped, you also have to create styles for
Bold, Italic, Underlined, ... and any combination. To make your environment
more foolproof, you reassign shortcuts like Ctrl-B to macro's you write
which will apply the corresponding style, etc. etc.


The User part consists of a Word Link Library (WLL) which adds a set
of functions to MS-Word 6.0 and a number of Word customisations which
are supplied as Word templates. Environments for the Boeing Service 
Bulletin DTD (ATA Reference : SBREV31.DTD  sb31-2.01a) and for a subset 
of the CALS MIL-M-28001 DTD are provided. Such customisations enable
some way of "structured authoring" within Word, that is :
  - the normal toolbars disappear;
  - an SGML toolbar appears with buttons for NextLegalStyle, Promote/Demote,
    Make a List, Apply Character Styles, Make a Table, Attributes Dialog Box,
    and more "normal" Word buttons such as "New", "Undo/Redo", ...
  - a bar with specific buttons for the current DTD (e.g., for applying
    styles as Heading 1, Bulleted List, ...).
Furthermore, the User part uses the parser DLLs from Avalanche in order
to save the document as SGML. Mappings are applied and the resulting marked-up
document is checked by this parser. If there are logical errors, they are
brought to the author's attention as annotations in a copy of the
document.
The customisations can be distributed to your authors, although the manual
does not tell that you can duplicate and distribute the WLL, which is needed
anyway by the customisations. It is also not probable that the parser DLLs can
be duplicated (for each authoring station, a $600 investment ?).


The "fundamental philosophy" of the product, in my view, is that checking of 
the SGML structure is done only when the document is saved; in order to provide 
some guidance during authoring, a complex customisation has to be built to 
enable NextLegalStyle, Attribute, etc. dialog boxes.
In other words, a lot of information which is already present in the DTD
has to be duplicated *** BY HAND *** in order to mimic a minimum of a
context-sensitive editor. Apart from the parser which operates during saving
operations, the user environment is not SGML-aware at all; structuring guidance
has to be crafted by the System Administrator and can easily be overridden.
Setting up a customisation for any but the simplest DTD is (IMHO) a very cumbersome task.

I suppose that creating such Word templates with their associated files could be
much more automated.

Infering logical structure by applying styles has been thought of by several
of our customers, but never proved entirely satisfactory. It is much more secure
to introduce tags (or their equivalent, such as Word fields) to which layout
can be coupled if you want to do so. Nice Technologies (TagWizard)
and MicroStar (Near & Far Author) have succeeded to provide real structured
(SGML-aware) editing functionality inside the MS-Word environment.

Another thing which bothers me is that Author seems to assume that mixed content
models correspond to the paragraph level and the thus defined element should be
mapped to a paragraph style; elements inside it have to be mapped to character
styles. It has sometimes been hard to work around that (MicroStar's Near & Far
generates the styles in the same way, but allows easier modification).

>3. Contact information for people who would like to discuss 
>their experiences with SGML Author.

You have it at the bottom of this posting.

>4. How does it stack up against IntelliTag for Novell/WordPerfect?
> 
Just as TagWizard and Near & Far Author, IntelliTag and the new WordPerfect SGML 
Edition keep the DTD logic available during authoring. Furthermore, Novell/Word-
Perfect's tools use internal codes which are the equivalent of tags and attributes
and which are completely independent of styles and formatting. Of course, with the 
new SGML Edition, you can associate layout information, but even in this association
process, the DTD logic is always available and filled in by the application
whenever necessary.

IMHO, the main difference is that with Microsoft's tool, you have to construct a 
set of layout information and do other configuration work before you can even start
authoring at all; it may take a lot of man-days before the environment is set up
and some errors may never become apparent (your documents may be syntactically
correct, but not necessarily in a semantic way). With tools from Novell/WordPerfect, 
you "compile" your DTD (which in all cases from my experience has never taken more 
than a few minutes) and you can start authoring. You can refine the environment,
associate layout and add customisation macro's, but this can be done gradually
and DTD changes have a less dramatic consequence. With TagWizard and Near & Far
Author, you also only need to "load" a DTD to start authoring. Even with
very complex DTDs, it takes only a few minutes.

Choosing between a Word or a WordPerfect add-on will probably be influenced
by the brand of word processor already installed in your environment.


In all this, nothing was said on using a variant concrete syntax or otherwise
modifying the SGML declaration, e.g., to have a different document character set.
These wordprocessor add-ons feel the most comfortable with the reference concrete
syntax and only one provides a well-documented way to accommodate different
character sets. I don't even dare to speak about SHORTREF, marked sections, USEMAPs,
SUBDOC, CONCUR, LINK, .. which are in general not or only partly
supported, but which are essential to some SGML applications).


Best regards,



------------------------------------------------------
Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Sema Group Belgium - Stallestraat 96 - B-1180 Brussels
------------------------------------------------------


</message>
<message id="<42h3e6$lc2@news.Belgium.EU.net>" date="3019280262" seqno="10643">
From: Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and MARC
Date: 5 Sep 1995 08:57:42 GMT
Organization: SEMA Group Belgium
Message-ID: <42h3e6$lc2@news.Belgium.EU.net>
References: <039d4f40@chadwyck.co.uk>

David.Walmsley@chadwyck.co.uk wrote:
>Has anyone attempted to convert MARC-formatted library records into
>SGML-encoded data?  
>...

In the framework of the Collective Catalog for Belgium (CCB), an SGML DTD was
created and used since 1991. The major academic and scientific libraries
use this encoding for exchanging records which serve to produce a CD-ROM. There
are about 4,000,000 bibliographic records on two discs.
A specific conversion environment has been set up at that time, to get Dobis-Libis
MARC records (and other MARC flavours) into SGML. The DTD is now in course of 
re-design. If you want more information, you can contact:

Herbert Vandesompel, University of Ghent \<Herbert.Vandesompel@rug.ac.be>
Richard Philips, University of Antwerp \<rphilips@main.bib.uia.ac.be>

Regards,

------------------------------------------------------
Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Sema Group Belgium - Stallestraat 96 - B-1180 Brussels
------------------------------------------------------


</message>
<message id="<42cnfv$imd@hopper.acm.org>" date="3019136958" seqno="10644">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Where can I find HTML DTD?
Date: 3 Sep 1995 17:09:18 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <42cnfv$imd@hopper.acm.org>
References: <424to9$hgu@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>,\<mvulpe-0309951216180001@ri4i001.i4i.org>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article \<mvulpe-0309951216180001@ri4i001.i4i.org>,
 mvulpe@i4i.org (Michel Vulpe) writes:
>here it is
>
>\<!SGML  "ISO 8879:1986"

Shame on you, Michel.  What you have transmitted is much more than the
DTD.  The "shame", of course, is not for transmitting the material--it's
all useful--but for not identifying correctly what the material is.
Have some sympathy for the beginners, who need to know what they're
getting.

For the record (how many times do we have to go over this?), an SGML
document has three parts:

    o	An SGML declaration

    o	A prolog (usually a single document type declaration)

    o   A document element (AKA document instance), which contains the
	raw characters of data in the document, together with markup
	to indicate the structure thereof.

A document type declaration (the second part) must contain the formal
part of the DTD, either explicitly or by reference.  Generally, it is
better to maintain DTDs separately and incorporate them into document
type declarations by reference.

That said, here's the boundaries of the pieces you sent, identified for
the beginners (note that the initial ">" of each line is not part of
what was sent):

Here starts the SGML declaration (with "\<!SGML"):

>\<!SGML  "ISO 8879:1986"
>--
>        Document Type Definition for the HyperText Markup Language 
>        as used by the World Wide Web application (HTML DTD).

		*     *     *     *     *

>  OTHER
>    CONCUR   NO
>    SUBDOC   NO
>    FORMAL   YES
>  APPINFO    NONE
>>

And that ">" ended the SGML declaration.  Next comes the document
type declaration (starts with "\<!DOCTYPE"):

>\<!DOCTYPE HTML [

Explicitly inside the document type declaration is found the formal
part of the DTD (not the best place for it, but legal):

>\<!-- Jul 1 93 -->
>\<!--    Regarding clause 6.1, SGML Document:
>
>        [1] SGML document = SGML document entity,
>            (SGML subdocument entity |
>            SGML text entity | non-SGML data entity)*
>
>        The role of SGML document entity is filled by this DTD,
>        followed by the conventional HTML data stream.
>-->

		*     *     *     *     *

>\<!ELEMENT PLAINTEXT - O EMPTY>
>
>\<!-- Local Variables: -->
>\<!-- mode: sgml -->
>\<!-- compile-command: "sgmls -s -p " -->
>\<!-- end: -->

That ends the DTD; the following "]" assures us of that.  The document type
declaration ends with ">":

>]>

So, what was sent was not just the DTD, but rather the first two components
of an SGML HTML document:  The SGML declaration and the document type
declaration.

It would appear that the author of this material, judging by the comment in
the DTD which says "The role of SGML document entity is filled by this DTD,
followed by the conventional HTML data stream", was also confused as to just
what a DTD is.  Lets not perpetuate the error--we need common terminology
to communicate.

Hope this helps.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<vafybw3r4e4.fsf@dusty.informatik.uni-dortmund.de>" date="3019296900" seqno="10645">
From: Kai Grossjohann \<grossjoh@ls6.informatik.uni-dortmund.de>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: 05 Sep 1995 15:35:00 +0200
Organization: Universitaet Dortmund, CS Dept, Chair 6
Sender: grossjoh@dusty.informatik.uni-dortmund.de
Message-ID: \<vafybw3r4e4.fsf@dusty.informatik.uni-dortmund.de>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <42djjj$9m9@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>
Reply-To: Kai Grossjohann \<grossjoh@ls6.informatik.uni-dortmund.de>
In-reply-to: John Lamp's message of 4 Sep 1995 01:09:07 GMT
To: John Lamp \<John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au>, gail@telepath.com

>>>>> "John" == John Lamp \<John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au> writes:
>>>>> Gail Sullivan \<gail@telepath.com> wrote:

  Gail> Concern #2: What's the deal with WAIS? We notice that some sites 
  Gail> utilize a WAIS database? Is it compatible with SGML or redundant?

  John> WAIS is based around the Z39.50 information search and
  John> retrieval protocol engine. It was originally designed for use
  John> with bibliographic databases, but SGML text works well with
  John> it.

Please note that the WAIS protocol (which is stateless) is only a
subset of Z39.50 (which is stateful), the stateless part.

There's an (IMVHO) interesting implementation of WAIS, freeWAIS-sf,
which deals with structured fields, so that if you have, say, a TITLE
and an AUTHOR field (tag) in your document, you can search on that
specifically.  As in

  - search for John Smith in the title
        ti=(john smith)
  - search for author John Smith
        au=(john smith)

\<URL:http://ls6-www.informatik.uni-dortmund.de/freeWAIS-sf/>

regards,
        \\kai{}
--
Life is hard and then you die.
</message>
<message id="<42hokv$kdf@news.cict.fr>" date="3019301983" seqno="10646">
From: pm@piau ()
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Installing DTDs
Date: 5 Sep 1995 14:59:43 GMT
Organization: Patrick MATHE, AEROSPATIALE Toulouse
Message-ID: <42hokv$kdf@news.cict.fr>
References: <427aqv$65j@mojo.eng.umd.edu>
Reply-To: patrick.mathe@avions.aerospatiale.fr

Charles B. Robey (chuckr@glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Could someone either explain to me how this works, or post an example of a
: valid SGML_PATH ?

My SGML_PATH values /usr/local/sgmls/%C/%N:/usr/local/sgmls/%C/%T
/usr/local/sgmls contains 2 directories:
	- entities, for PUBLIC entities
	- dtd, for PUBLIC dtds

For example, if there is this line in your DTD:
<! DOCTYPE name1 PUBLIC '-//foo//DTD name2//EN' [ ...

if SGML_PATH = /usr/local/sgmls/%C/%N,
	SGMLS will find /usr/local/sgmls/dtd/name1
	(%C = lowercase DTD)

if SGML_PATH = /usr/local/sgmls/%C/%T,
	SGMLS will find /usr/local/sgmls/dtd/name2

if SGML_PATH = /usr/local/sgmls/%C/%N:/usr/local/sgmls/%C/%T
	SGMLS will find both

It's similar with PUBLIC entities
(ENTITIES instead of DTD in the PUBLIC path,
so entities directory instead of dtd directory).

Note if the name of your PUBLIC is componed, I think SGMLS replaces
each blank by an underscore.

--
Patrick MATHE
patrick.mathe@avions.aerospatiale.fr
</message>
<message id="<9509051600.AA18349@euryale.onecert.fr>" date="3019305627" seqno="10647">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Approved: erik@naggum.no
Date: 05 Sep 1995 17:00:27 +0100
Message-ID: <9509051600.AA18349@euryale.onecert.fr>
From: Martin Hollender \<Martin.Hollender@onecert.fr>
Subject: Where are HyTime links for Panorama?

I would like to study complex examples of HyTime Links (e.g., ilinks).
Does anybody know where I can find such documents?

SoftQuad Panorama has some HyTime support, so I would be very interested in
URLs to demonstrate the HyTime hyperlinking capabilities of Panorama.

Thank you very much
Martin

-- 
Martin Hollender
Research Associate

eurisco - European Institute of Cognitive Sciences and Engineering
4, av Edouard Belin
31400 TOULOUSE, France

Tel: +33 62 17 38 31
Fax: +33 62 17 38 39
</message>
<message id="<pcenxvfjc2.fsf@gargoyle.ncsa.uiuc.edu>" date="3019313117" seqno="10648">
From: From: Ben Gross \<bgross@uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: uiuc.cs.jobs,misc.jobs.offered,comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems
Subject: Research Programmer Position for Digital Library Initiative
Date: 05 Sep 1995 13:05:17 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign
Message-ID: \<pcenxvfjc2.fsf@gargoyle.ncsa.uiuc.edu>


Research Programmer Position

Digital Library Initiative Grant Project,   Grainger Engineering Library
Information Center,  University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

Associated with an NSF/NASA/ARPA Grant awarded to the Graduate School
of Library and Information Science,  the Grainger Engineering Library
Information Center,  the University Library,  the National Center for
Supercomputing Applications (NCSA).

Incumbent will participate in building a digital testbed of full-text
engineering journals supplied to the project in SGML format by publishers.
The incumbent will be part of the Testbed team, which is responsible for
database management activities, including materials processing, data
loading, and software development as needed,  using Grainger
Library database servers and information processing technologies.

Candidate requirements:  a BS in Computer Science and experience with
database management systems in the Windows and/or UNIX environment.
Preferred:  experience with SQL and Relational Databases in Windows NT
environment,  Information Storage and Retrieval Systems,  SGML, the
World-Wide-Web and wide-area networking, Windows application development
languages (Visual Basic,  C++).

Position is full-time with university benefits supported by NSF grant.
Salary commensurate with experience and education.

Full consideration will be given to applications received by October 1, 1995.
Starting date is as soon as possible after October 1, 1995.   Please send
cover letter, CV, and the names and addresses of three references to
Susan Harum,  Grainger Engineering Library Information Center,
1301 W. Springfield Avenue,  University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign,
Urbana, IL  61820  (s-harum@uiuc.edu)

The University of Illinois is an Affirmative Action/EOE Employer.


Susan L. Harum
External Relations Coordinator
Digital Library Project
University of Illinois

(217)244-8984
(217)244-7764 FAX

s-harum@uiuc.edu (sharum@anshar.grainger.uiuc.edu)
-- 
"Wait a minute, Juanita.  Make up your mind.  This Snow Crash thing--is it
a virus, a drug, or a religion?" Juanita shrugs. "What's the difference?"
    ---Neal Stephenson "Snow Crash"
Ben Gross  Email: bgross@uiuc.edu  URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/bgross
</message>
<message id="<810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>" date="3019328466" seqno="10649">
From: Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 95 22:21:06 GMT
Organization: Myorganisation
Message-ID: <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com>,<809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org>
Reply-To: Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk

Thank you Dave,

Your points are well taken, but they reinforce my feeling that it isn't easy
to start learning SGML without a prior commitment of time and (usually) money.
I'm not complaining personally, but it could be a barrier to trying to get
a communal project off the ground.  You don't know whether it's what you
want until you try it, and to try it is a fairly major commitment.

In article <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org> davep@ACM.ORG  writes:

> 
> Often you'll find that by adding more customization to your DTD you'll make
> the resulting data sets even more useful, hence more valuable.

I agree and that is why I have 'borrowed' HTML 2.0 as part of my DTDs.

> >program.  I'm open to correction, but I would assume that for almost
> >every DTD, at least one completely new application program has had to be 
> >written.
> 
> Only if you consider very high-level things "programs".  There are good
> translators out there (e.g., OmniMark) which can translate using a list
> of translating rules that, while I agree are programs, are generally orders

I wasn't criticising the commercial contributions, though I have no idea
of their price.  Gail mentioned that she wished free software.  In principle
I am quite prepared to pay for high quality software, though the prices 
quoted on this newsgroup ($600 for the MS word tool) put some of them outside 
the range of most people's home budget.

> of magnitude easier to write or have written as compared to, say, C programs.
> The output of such a translator can be fed into a general-purpose formatter
> such as TeK or MS Word, and out comes the formatted display/presentation.

Perhaps I'm being more ambitious than others, but my operations on the SGML
documents include launching helper applications as well as translating from 
one format to another.  These helpers include 3-D molecular viewers and 
interactive graphing packages.

> 
> Free tools for complicated problems are slow to be developed.  Most of us
> don't have the resources to put that kind of time in without reimbursement.

I agree!  But it makes it difficult for Gail to know whether it's worth
exploring this enough to make a convincing case later for proper
funding.  Vicious circle...

> 
> There are other tools as well.  On the other hand, a simple DTD is as easy
> to learn to write as a simple BASIC program.  And if your DTD is complex,
> the login built into it will be complex and difficult to come up with
> regardless of your tool.  The logical design is the hard part, not the
> syntax of writing it down.

I agree completely.  It seemed to me that the DTD editor was the least 
important part and was as complex as writing the DTD.

(BTW one problem I have is how to *document* my DTDs?  If I use SGML comments
they are stripped out before, say, getting into dtd2html so that the elements
appear with no comments.  Is there any analogue to Knuth's literate programming
where DTDs can contain both 'code' and documentation?  Otherwise it seems that
the task of keeping the documentation in sync with the DTD is difficult.)

> 
> There are several commercial editors out there that adapt to arbitrary
> DTDs.  I don't have a complete list at my fingertips; I saw a pretty good
> list in another article recently.  There is also a popular combination of

This is a major problem for me.  I now have my DTD and rendering software
(thanks to sgmls + CoST) and I would like my collaborators to send me test
instances. I cannot reasonably ask them to spend several hundred dollars, nor 
can I ask most of them to install EMACS and learn to use it.  The saving 
grace is that I expect many of these documents to be generated as output from 
programs or laboratory equipment.

> gussied-up EMACS and SP or SGMLS that's all public domain.  Someone else
> no doubt will post the references.  Since it often seems to pay off to "roll
> your own" DTD, a single-DTD editor has a _very_ limited market.

Yes - installing EMACS was somewhere next on the list :-)

> 
> There is none free, but several commercial editors do both of these things.

Thanks.  It would be very useful to have an idea of a basic shopping list.
Roughly what sort of investment is necessary in editors, formatters, etc.?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I have recently installed CoST and SGMLSpm, which seem to be exactly the sort
of tools that I want.  Since I know tcl but not perl, I have hacked my 
renderer in CoST and been very pleased.  (It would have been impossible without
a very good knowledge of tcl and I suspect the same is true for perl in 
SGMLSpm.  It also means that the distribution kit includes four major packages
(tcl, itcl, sgmls and cost) and there can always be installation problems - it
took me a fair effort).  I'd be very grateful for comments on the present 
status of these tools and recommendations for the future.  Does either tool 
have a tk interface for building graphics?  Do either of them have mailing 
lists?

	TIA

	P.
-- 
Peter Murray-Rust, domestic net connexion
</message>
<message id="<susan-0509951537300001@semiramis.gordian.com>" date="3019329450" seqno="10650">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: susan@gordian.com (Susan Gallagher)
Subject: list of SGML tools
Message-ID: \<susan-0509951537300001@semiramis.gordian.com>
Sender: news@gordian.com
Organization: Gordian
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 22:37:30 GMT

I got a copy of Steve Pepper's SGML tools list last year. It was from
11/93 and listed all sorts of SGML books, tools, etc. It was extremely
helpful. Anyone know of an updated list of this type?

Thanks,

Susan
susan@gordian.com
</message>
<message id="<susan-0509951542030001@semiramis.gordian.com>" date="3019329723" seqno="10651">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: susan@gordian.com (Susan Gallagher)
Subject: SGML Authoring Environment
Message-ID: \<susan-0509951542030001@semiramis.gordian.com>
Sender: news@gordian.com
Organization: Gordian
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 22:42:03 GMT

I'm looking for an SGML authoring environment and would like any pointers
(including sales types) that anyone can give me. 

I've already contacted a number of companies -- if anyone has any strong
feelings about a particular tool (love this one, feel this one is
inadequate), I'd love to hear them.

DETAILS OF OUR SITUATION:

We're an engineering design firm, currently doing paper-based
documentation. We do all of our current docs in Frame on Mac/UNIX; plan to
distribute on CD and WWW. We'd like to move from converting Frame to html
to authoring directly in SGML. Distribution would require an SGML to HTML
conversion utility (hopefully included with the authoring software) and/or
a browser for CD.

Thanks,

Susan Gallagher
susan@gordian.com
</message>
<message id="<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca>" date="3019327458" seqno="10652">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: cm298@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Alan Karben)
Subject: HyTime Linking & 'Mainstream' SGML
Message-ID: \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: cm298@freenet3.carleton.ca (Alan Karben)
Reply-To: cm298@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Alan Karben)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 22:04:18 GMT


We've been evaluating the popular conversion tools for a product to transform
documents from our DTD into HTML, and have found that our choice of using 
HyTime for linking has made life difficult. 
 
The HyTime \<clink> does a peculiar trick, among its myriad hand-offs, of 
making an entity reference the *content* of an element. For example:
 
  \<!entity foo SYSTEM "http://www.elsewhere.com" NDATA HTML>
  ...
  \<nameloc id="N1">
      \<nmlist nametype="entity">foo\</nmlist>
  \</nameloc>
  ...
  \<p>Click \<clink linkend="N1">here\</clink> to go elsewhere.\</p>
 
Neither OmniMark nor sgmls can natively pick up on the fact that the above 
document actually refers to the entity \&foo;. (SGML Hammer from Avalanche had 
the unfortunate feature of searching the file system for all entities used,
and is therefore unusable by our system.)
 
OmniMark has suggested we preprocess the document, pulling out all entity
references into a table that their down-translation converter could access. 
We'll be testing how much of a performance hit our system will take with
this approach.
 
James Clark was helpful enough to work into the latest version of nsgmls an
option that can make *all* entities reachable by processing/conversion
applications. This seems to be a step in the right direction, but not 
quite what a HyTime-aware SGML processor would do. 
 
We still believe in the concept in a standard addressing system that can 
handle:
   * links to other documents
   * links to parts of your current document
   * links to parts of other documents, even if you do not have the
     ability to insert \<anchors> into those documents
   * one-to-many links
It is also handy that all the actual URLs wind up as unduplicated
references at the top of the document instance.

However... have any SGML users found any hints that commercial and/or 
public domain products -- for conversion, authoring, browsing, etc. --
might better support HyTime linking mechanisms? 
 
Thanks,
Alan
 
\<!--
Alan Karben
Manager, Multimedia Systems Development
The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition
karben@dowjones.com       http://update.wsj.com
-->
 
</message>
<message id="<pepper.2.00198580@falch.no>" date="3019363957" seqno="10653">
From: pepper@falch.no (Steve Pepper)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: list of SGML tools
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 08:12:37 LOCAL
Organization: Falch Infotek AS, Norway
Message-ID: \<pepper.2.00198580@falch.no>
References: \<susan-0509951537300001@semiramis.gordian.com>

In article \<susan-0509951537300001@semiramis.gordian.com> susan@gordian.com (Susan Gallagher) writes:

>I got a copy of Steve Pepper's SGML tools list last year. It was from
>11/93 and listed all sorts of SGML books, tools, etc. It was extremely
>helpful. Anyone know of an updated list of this type?

The Whirlwind Guide is updated continuously. You can find the latest
version at http://www.falch.no/~pepper/sgmltool/. An ASCII version is
available at ftp://ftp.falch.no/pub/sgmltool/.

For book references (and a whole load of other useful stuff) see
Robin Cover's SGML Web Page at http://www.sil.org/sgml/sgml.html.

On the subject of updating the tools list: Some vendors are good at
keeping me informed about changes of address, etc. Others are less
so. The accuracy of the list reflects this.

Best regards,

Steve
--
Steve Pepper, SGML Architect                   pepper@falch.no
Falch Infotek a.s, Postboks 130 Kalbakken, N-0902 Oslo, Norway
http://www.falch.no/  tel://+47 2290 2733  fax://+47 2290 2599
"The Whirlwind Guide":   http://www.falch.no/~pepper/sgmltool/



</message>
<message id="<42jdi6$oc@elna.ethz.ch>" date="3019356166" seqno="10654">
From: wiedmer@iwf.bepr.ethz.ch (Wiedmer Hans Ulrich)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: CACM Aug 95: mention of SGML and HyTime?!
Date: 6 Sep 1995 06:02:46 GMT
Organization: IWF ETHZ, Zuerich Switzerland
Message-ID: <42jdi6$oc@elna.ethz.ch>


I just skimmed the Communications of the ACM, August 1995, which is 
a special issue on "Designing Hypermedia Applications". I was a bit
disappointed to see so few mention of SGML and HyTime (if any).
I didn't see SGML anywhere. HyTime was mentioned by Hugh Davis in
the article "To Embed or Not to Embed...", but without indicating
any source (e.g. ISO/IEC 10744, or the excellent book "Making
Hypermedia Work").

On the other hand, in the ACM forum there is a debate on the 
usability of ISO standards in the IT field.

Maybe some knowledgeable and recognized person could reply to all
this, to improve the awareness of existing standards and solutions.

BTW: some material to this issue is available online:
http://www.acm.org/siglink/

Kind regards
John
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hans Ulrich (John) Wiedmer, CAD/CAM Group,  e-mail: wiedmer@iwf.bepr.ethz.ch
Laboratory of Machine Tools and Manufacturing (IWF)
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, Switzerland
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<42jjv4$8uf@macondo.dmu.ac.uk>" date="3019362724" seqno="10655">
From: djh@dmu.ac.uk (Dave Houghton)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGMLS and ISOlat1.sgml
Date: 6 Sep 1995 07:52:04 GMT
Organization: De Montfort University, Leicester
Message-ID: <42jjv4$8uf@macondo.dmu.ac.uk>

I am using sgmls to parse HTML files but keep
getting the following errors

sgmls: Warning at html.dtd, line 83 in declaration parameter 5:
       Could not find external parameter entity "ISOlat1"

I am reliably informed that I need to set an environmental
variable SGML_PATH. I am using UNIX k shell. Any suggestions
how I can pick up ISOlat1.sgml file.
</message>
<message id="<FogTwA6NBh107h@chambers.ak.planet.co.nz>" date="3019351941" seqno="10656">
From: steve@chambers.ak.planet.co.nz (Steve Chambers)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: LivePage
Message-ID: \<FogTwA6NBh107h@chambers.ak.planet.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 95 16:52:21 +1200
Organization: PlaNet (Auckland New Zealand)

I've heard vague mutterings about a relational database that allows
text storage in SGML format.  Apparently it has extensive boolean
search capabilities.  

I think it may be called "LivePage".  Details anyone?

Steve 

-- 
 ________________________ 
(I_lurk,_therefore_I_am!_\\  ,,,                           Steve Chambers
                           (o o)          steve@chambers.ak.planet.co.nz
-----------------------oOO--(_)--OOo------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<42jrhr$img@data.interserv.net>" date="3019370491" seqno="10657">
From: censign@interserv.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: LivePage
Date: 6 Sep 1995 10:01:31 GMT
Organization: Logical Design Solutions, Inc.
Message-ID: <42jrhr$img@data.interserv.net>
References: \<FogTwA6NBh107h@chambers.ak.planet.co.nz>

>   steve@chambers.ak.planet.co.nz (Steve Chambers) writes:
>  I think it may be called "LivePage".  Details anyone?

Steve, 

The product is LivePAGE from Inforium, the Information Atrium, Inc. 
158 University Avenue West, Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA  N2L 3E9. 
Phone number is 519-885-2181 and email is (of course) info@inforium.com. 

Can't give you any impressions yet because I have not had a chance 
to test it out. However for those who are attending the September 19th 
all-day SGML "Open for Business" expo being run by the SGML Forum of NY 
and SGML Open, Inforium will have a table top display there. 

Best,

/chet  

-- 
Chet Ensign                      censign@interserv.com
Logical Design Solutions, Inc.   +1 908 771 9221      


</message>
<message id="<42jrr3$img@data.interserv.net>" date="3019370787" seqno="10658">
From: censign@interserv.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Authoring Environment
Date: 6 Sep 1995 10:06:27 GMT
Organization: Logical Design Solutions, Inc.
Message-ID: <42jrr3$img@data.interserv.net>
References: \<susan-0509951542030001@semiramis.gordian.com>

>   susan@gordian.com (Susan Gallagher) writes:
>  I'm looking for an SGML authoring environment and would like any pointers

Susan, 

There was an earlier posting in the newsgroup for Steve Pepper's 
"Whirlwind Guide to SGML Tools." You can find it at 
http://www.falch.no/~pepper/sgmltool/. 

It lists tools, doesn't give opinions. But for a comprehensive list, organized 
by platform, function, etc. you can't do better. 

Best, 

/chet 
 
-- 
Chet Ensign                      censign@interserv.com
Logical Design Solutions, Inc.   +1 908 771 9221      



</message>
<message id="<42k4k1$14h@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com>" date="3019379777" seqno="10659">
From: Paul Hayslett <72537.342@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: 6 Sep 1995 12:36:17 GMT
Organization: Cow Bay Software
Message-ID: <42k4k1$14h@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>

Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>	Several people on this list have mentioned that SGML does not get
>as wide usage as it deserves.  The lack of simple tools and the consequent
>difficult of exploration are an important factor in this.

I have to say that, in my experience with a number of publishers, lack of "simple" tools is not 
the problem. Rather, it is the lack of reasonably-priced, commercially-supported tools.

I have developed several SGML database systems (or parts thereof) and I have watched several 
publishing houses try to make the shift to using SGML. In each and every case, the first 
stumbling block for the house management was the lack of tools in the $100 - $500 price range.

Free tools are available, and many are of outstanding quality. But most non-technical managers, 
faced with the need to ensure that a mission-critical system stays up, will not touch an 
unsupported product. "PD software is for academics," they say, "whose time is cheap."

Expensive tools are available, also of very high quality. But publishers tend to have very thin 
profit margins. Spending 10's of thousands of $ on a tool is difficult for them. Spending it on 
a tool needed for a project of uncertain return is almost impossible.

As Eric Naggum says, SGML is a language. Getting people to use a new language is tough. Borland 
hit paydirt by pricing Turbo Pascal and Turbo C at a point low enough to attract interest but 
high enough to pay for some support. We need a Turbo SGML Parser.

The text-editor market has recently started to fill the price gap. We need more tools. Probably 
the single best shot in the arm for SGML would be for James Clark to set up a company offering 
full, commercial-grade support for SP for a license fee of $299.



</message>
<message id="<42k86d$6ca@news.cict.fr>" date="3019383437" seqno="10660">
From: pm@piau ()
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGMLS and ISOlat1.sgml
Date: 6 Sep 1995 13:37:17 GMT
Organization: Patrick MATHE, AEROSPATIALE Toulouse
Message-ID: <42k86d$6ca@news.cict.fr>
References: <42jjv4$8uf@macondo.dmu.ac.uk>
Reply-To: patrick.mathe@avions.aerospatiale.fr

Dave Houghton (djh@dmu.ac.uk) wrote:
: I am reliably informed that I need to set an environmental
: variable SGML_PATH. I am using UNIX k shell. Any suggestions
: how I can pick up ISOlat1.sgml file.

Charles B. Robey (chuckr@glue.umd.edu) wrote:
: Could someone either explain to me how this works, or post an example of a
: valid SGML_PATH ?

My SGML_PATH values /usr/local/sgmls/%C/%N:/usr/local/sgmls/%C/%T
/usr/local/sgmls contains 2 directories:
        - entities, for PUBLIC entities
        - dtd, for PUBLIC dtds

For example, if there is this line in your DTD:
<! DOCTYPE name1 PUBLIC '-//foo//DTD name2//EN' [ ...

if SGML_PATH = /usr/local/sgmls/%C/%N,
        SGMLS will find /usr/local/sgmls/dtd/name1
        (%C = lowercase DTD)

if SGML_PATH = /usr/local/sgmls/%C/%T,
        SGMLS will find /usr/local/sgmls/dtd/name2

if SGML_PATH = /usr/local/sgmls/%C/%N:/usr/local/sgmls/%C/%T
        SGMLS will find both

It's similar with PUBLIC entities
(ENTITIES instead of DTD in the PUBLIC path,
so entities directory instead of dtd directory).

Note if the name of your PUBLIC is componed, I think SGMLS replaces
each blank by an underscore.



     \<!--  (C)  International   Organization   for   Standardization   1986
     Permission to copy in any form is granted for use with conforming SGML
     systems and applications as defined in ISO 8879, provided this  notice
     is included in all copies.  -->

     \<!-- Character entity set. Typical invocation:

     \<!ENTITY % ISOlat1 PUBLIC "ISO 8879-1986//ENTITIES Added Latin 1//EN">
     %ISOlat1;
     -->

     \<!ENTITY aacute SDATA "[aacute]"--=small a, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Aacute SDATA "[Aacute]"--=capital A, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY acirc  SDATA "[acirc ]"--=small a, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Acirc  SDATA "[Acirc ]"--=capital A, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY agrave SDATA "[agrave]"--=small a, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Agrave SDATA "[Agrave]"--=capital A, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY aring  SDATA "[aring ]"--=small a, ring-->
     \<!ENTITY Aring  SDATA "[Aring ]"--=capital A, ring-->
     \<!ENTITY atilde SDATA "[atilde]"--=small a, tilde-->
     \<!ENTITY Atilde SDATA "[Atilde]"--=capital A, tilde-->
     \<!ENTITY auml   SDATA "[auml  ]"--=small a, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY Auml   SDATA "[Auml  ]"--=capital A, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY aelig  SDATA "[aelig ]"--=small ae diphthong (ligature)-->
     \<!ENTITY AElig  SDATA "[AElig ]"--=capital AE diphthong (ligature)-->
     \<!ENTITY ccedil SDATA "[ccedil]"--=small c, cedilla-->
     \<!ENTITY Ccedil SDATA "[Ccedil]"--=capital C, cedilla-->
     \<!ENTITY eth    SDATA "[eth   ]"--=small eth, Icelandic-->
     \<!ENTITY ETH    SDATA "[ETH   ]"--=capital Eth, Icelandic-->
     \<!ENTITY eacute SDATA "[eacute]"--=small e, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Eacute SDATA "[Eacute]"--=capital E, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY ecirc  SDATA "[ecirc ]"--=small e, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Ecirc  SDATA "[Ecirc ]"--=capital E, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY egrave SDATA "[egrave]"--=small e, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Egrave SDATA "[Egrave]"--=capital E, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY euml   SDATA "[euml  ]"--=small e, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY Euml   SDATA "[Euml  ]"--=capital E, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY iacute SDATA "[iacute]"--=small i, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Iacute SDATA "[Iacute]"--=capital I, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY icirc  SDATA "[icirc ]"--=small i, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Icirc  SDATA "[Icirc ]"--=capital I, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY igrave SDATA "[igrave]"--=small i, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Igrave SDATA "[Igrave]"--=capital I, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY iuml   SDATA "[iuml  ]"--=small i, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY Iuml   SDATA "[Iuml  ]"--=capital I, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY ntilde SDATA "[ntilde]"--=small n, tilde-->
     \<!ENTITY Ntilde SDATA "[Ntilde]"--=capital N, tilde-->
     \<!ENTITY oacute SDATA "[oacute]"--=small o, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Oacute SDATA "[Oacute]"--=capital O, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY ocirc  SDATA "[ocirc ]"--=small o, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Ocirc  SDATA "[Ocirc ]"--=capital O, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY ograve SDATA "[ograve]"--=small o, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Ograve SDATA "[Ograve]"--=capital O, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY oslash SDATA "[oslash]"--=small o, slash-->
     \<!ENTITY Oslash SDATA "[Oslash]"--=capital O, slash-->
     \<!ENTITY otilde SDATA "[otilde]"--=small o, tilde-->
     \<!ENTITY Otilde SDATA "[Otilde]"--=capital O, tilde-->
     \<!ENTITY ouml   SDATA "[ouml  ]"--=small o, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY Ouml   SDATA "[Ouml  ]"--=capital O, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY szlig  SDATA "[szlig ]"--=small sharp s, German (sz ligature)-->
     \<!ENTITY thorn  SDATA "[thorn ]"--=small thorn, Icelandic-->
     \<!ENTITY THORN  SDATA "[THORN ]"--=capital THORN, Icelandic-->
     \<!ENTITY uacute SDATA "[uacute]"--=small u, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Uacute SDATA "[Uacute]"--=capital U, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY ucirc  SDATA "[ucirc ]"--=small u, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Ucirc  SDATA "[Ucirc ]"--=capital U, circumflex accent-->
     \<!ENTITY ugrave SDATA "[ugrave]"--=small u, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Ugrave SDATA "[Ugrave]"--=capital U, grave accent-->
     \<!ENTITY uuml   SDATA "[uuml  ]"--=small u, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY Uuml   SDATA "[Uuml  ]"--=capital U, dieresis or umlaut mark-->
     \<!ENTITY yacute SDATA "[yacute]"--=small y, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY Yacute SDATA "[Yacute]"--=capital Y, acute accent-->
     \<!ENTITY yuml   SDATA "[yuml  ]"--=small y, dieresis or umlaut mark-->


--
Patrick MATHE
patrick.mathe@avions.aerospatiale.fr
</message>
<message id="<42kd4n$a8m@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3019388503" seqno="10661">
From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: 6 Sep 1995 15:01:43 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
Message-ID: <42kd4n$a8m@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com>,<809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org> <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com

Peter Murray-Rust (Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk) wrote:

: (BTW one problem I have is how to *document* my DTDs?  If I use SGML comments
: they are stripped out before, say, getting into dtd2html so that the elements
: appear with no comments.  Is there any analogue to Knuth's literate programming
: where DTDs can contain both 'code' and documentation?  Otherwise it seems that
: the task of keeping the documentation in sync with the DTD is difficult.)

I don't know "Knuth's literate programming", but this is what we do:

Define \<!ELEMENT comment - - (#PCDATA)>.
Allow comments in appropriate content models. 
We avoided using inclusion, as we _must_ roll our own parser, don't 
want to make our job any harder than it already is.

The semantics (enforced in our SGML application) are (usually) to ignore
\<comment> elements.


--
  Tad McClellan,      Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy)
                      email: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com
  Interesting trivia: If you took all the sand in North Africa and spread
     it out... it would cover the Sahara desert.
</message>
<message id="<42kf67$5g7@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk>" date="3019390599" seqno="10662">
From: ada@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Milne)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: GRADUATE INTERESTED IN SGML JOBS
Date: 6 Sep 1995 15:36:39 GMT
Organization: Queen Mary & Westfield College, London, UK
Message-ID: <42kf67$5g7@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk>
Keywords: SGML


My name is Mary Milne and I have recently completed my degree
in Computer Science at the University of London. I used SGML 
as part of my final year project entitled 
"Logical Structure V Visual Structure" in which I designed 
and implimented an application to aid the user in marking up 
a document instance using a DTD.
Prior to commencing my degree I worked extensivly with text 
in my work as a Graphic Designer which was a major reason for 
choosing text processing as my final project.
I am now looking for a position that involves text processing 
but I'm having difficulty in locationing organisations involved 
in this area. As I found this bb invaluable while working 
on my project I thought I would use it again with the hope of 
getting some feedback as to where I might look and what the 
possiblities are of employment in this field.
I am currently using my college e-mail address:
ada@dcs.qmw.ac.uk but this will be removed when the new term 
begins (Oct 95). 
Alternativly I can be contacted on 0181 969 3340 which has 
an answer phone. 

Thanks in advance.

Mary
</message>
<message id="<DEHpBx.6n2@unx.sas.com>" date="3019389693" seqno="10663">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski)
Subject: Documenting DTD's (was Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!)
Originator: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com
Sender: news@unx.sas.com (Noter of Newsworthy Events)
Message-ID: \<DEHpBx.6n2@unx.sas.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 15:21:33 GMT
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com>,<809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org> <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>, Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk> writes:

[...]

|> (BTW one problem I have is how to *document* my DTDs?  If I use SGML comments
|> they are stripped out before, say, getting into dtd2html so that the elements
|> appear with no comments.  Is there any analogue to Knuth's literate programming
|> where DTDs can contain both 'code' and documentation?  Otherwise it seems that
|> the task of keeping the documentation in sync with the DTD is difficult.)

[...]

This is an interesting general problem. 

One solution to preserve your embedded comments:  keep one copy of your
source away from whatever strips it, or find a product that doesn't do
that 8-). You could write a script that finds your source in one spot,
copies it to another, then initiates the process that strips your
comments on the copy (does parsing do that to you?  that's *nasty*!).

We are evolving several strategies to document our DTD's. We need 
several kinds of documentation, the realization of which helped us to 
stop trying to use design specs for everything.

One kind of documentation involves embedded DTD comments. We wrote a
tool that finds comments by element, alphabetizes the elements, and
formats them and the comments, "more or less" automatically. I say "more
or less" since we usually need to augment the resulting file a little.
Right now it's in PERL. We want to migrate it to Omnimark - the entity
resolution difficulties and the problems with detecting significant
spacing are enough to recommend that. This kind of documentation meets
the needs of our DTD developers, and also our designers who look at the
DTD elements and give us a design spec for how to present them
graphically.

We also have a form (it's a DTD, actually) to contain the information we 
use from document analysis for specific elements. We use information in 
these forms as specs prior to doing DTD development.

We are in the middle of a project to automate getting the specs to HTML
for internal online viewing, and also re-written from that rhetorical
form to a more user-oriented form so we can include it in the online
help in our SGML editor (which is a commercially available product, Ok
it's Adept, which allows that sort of thing). This is more of a
procedural issue than a technical problem, but we need to do it to
support our writers when they are using the tool to create SGML
documents. End-users see this kind of doc.

But no, it's not easy no matter how you look at it.  And we don't have
it quite hammered together yet.

I'd be interested to hear what others are doing in this area, either
posted to the group or by email (which I'll gladly summarize and post
back).

Cordially,
--
Len Olszewski       Project Manager, SGML Technology Group
saslpo@unx.sas.com  Publication Technologies Development Department
919-677-8000 x7487  SAS Institute, SAS Campus Drive, Cary, NC 27513


</message>
<message id="<9509061912.AA25739@fly.hiwaay.net>" date="3019403561" seqno="10664">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Approved: erik@naggum.no
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 14:12:41 -0500
Message-ID: <9509061912.AA25739@fly.hiwaay.net>
From: Len Bullard \<cbullard@hiwaay.net>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <42k4k1$14h@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!

[Paul Hayslett]

I understand your position.  It is not without merit.  I have encountered
the same problem in the past.  However, a sea change is in progress.

|   We need a Turbo SGML Parser.

We have one courtesy of James Clark.  Unfortunately for some, it costs too
little.

|   Probably the single best shot in the arm for SGML would be for James
|   Clark to set up a company offering full, commercial-grade support for
|   SP for a license fee of $299.

I certainly can't speak for Mr. Clark, but:

1.  If he does not desire such activity, he could offer a company willing
    to offer "full, commercial-grade support for SP for a license fee of
    $299" the source to support.  I think he would get takers on the offer
    if it was exclusive.  Should he do so, it would be interesting if the
    same company used its profits to create a line of similarly priced
    tools for SGML.  There are probably a few thousand of us who would work
    for such a company.

2.  If he does that, where go the rest of us for whom the price was right
    to begin with?  Do we roll over because someone hired incompetent
    managers?

While I completely appreciate the situation you have described, some of us
thought that would be the case for WWW apps.  We were wrong.  Companies are
adopting the Web apps in droves.  Every indication is that they had the
same level of technical appreciation for that decision.

I also, wish for inexpensive SGML tools but to lessen labor and improve
productivity, not to assuage the confidence of those for whom anything of
worth has a quotable price.

Len Bullard
</message>
<message id="<42koghINN8ja@afshub.boulder.ibm.com>" date="3019400145" seqno="10665">
From: wohler@vnet.ibm.com (Wayne L. Wohler)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML and math encoding
Date: 6 Sep 1995 18:15:45 GMT
Organization: ISSC
Message-ID: <42koghINN8ja@afshub.boulder.ibm.com>
Reply-To: wohler@vnet.ibm.com (Wayne L. Wohler)
Summary: What's the consensus on math encoding?
Keywords: SGML mathematics_typesetting

I have the task of adding a non-proprietary mathematics language to
IBM's DTD for technical documentation, IBMIDDoc.  Is there a consensus
on the 'right' way to do this?  The alternatives that come to mind are:

     ISO Technical Report 9573
     ISO Standard 12083 (presumably not the AAP fragment from which it
          was derived)

Any other applications that apply?

Our current mathematics encoding uses SMFF, an eqn-like math language, that
is processed by an add-on to our S/390-based composer DCF.  I'd like to
have the ability to encode math so that we can process it usng a number of
different formatting and viewing products while getting more meanful
(than looking at tags or math encoding) visual feedback while editing.

Wayne L. Wohler                   Internet:  wohler@vnet.ibm.com
IBM/ISSC Corporation              IBMMAIL:   USIB29WX@IBMMAIL
PO Box 1900                       Phone: 1-303-924-1440
Boulder, Colorado  80301-9191

Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM

</message>
<message id="<1995Sep6.184814.10881@nosc.mil>" date="3019402094" seqno="10666">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: sfim@nosc.mil (Sandy Fimiano)
Subject: job opportunity, Technical Writing
Message-ID: <1995Sep6.184814.10881@nosc.mil>
Sender: news@nosc.mil
Organization: NCCOSC RDT\&E Division, San Diego, CA
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 18:48:14 GMT

PRC seeks a full-time technical writer with experience in developing hardcopy
and on-line documentation.  Ideal candidates will possess a masters degree in
a related discipline or the equivalent years of experience.  Prefer experience
in at least three of the following:  UNIX environment; HTML, SGML and other    
electronic publishing standards; conversion of existing documentation into HTML
or SGML formats; Word 6.0; ArborText; DynaText; FasTag; HTML Conversion software;
and/or WWW (Netscape, Mosaic).

Followup-To: 
Ms. Sandy Fimiano, Human Resources Rep.
PRC Inc.
One Bala Plaza, Suite 324
Bala Cynwyd, PA   19004
(610)668-1500   FAX:  (610)668-1135   email:  fimiano_sandy@prc.com

Distribution: usa
Organization:
PRC is a leader in technology-based information systems and services.  PRC's
outstanding record of technical success over the past 40 years encompasses
imaging, open systems integration, telecommunications and networking, software
engineering and engineering services to government and commercial customers
around the world.  PRC employs 7,000 and is a subsidiary of Black and Decker. 
Keywords:

Electronic publishing, technical writing, SGML, HTML, ArborText, DynaText,       FasTag  
Cc: 


</message>
<message id="<42kglt$s90@newsbf02.news.aol.com>" date="3019392125" seqno="10667">
From: nomuraent@aol.com (Michael Pash)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: LivePage
Date: 6 Sep 1995 12:02:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <42kglt$s90@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <42jrhr$img@data.interserv.net>

I'm reviewing LivePage right now.  LivePage is not a database but rather a
suite of  products which includes a relational database loader for SGML
documents.  The documents can be put in Oracle 7.x, Watcom SQL 3.2 or
greater, Microsoft SQL Server 4.20x, or SYBASE SQL version 10.  You can
get a copy of Watcom SQL 3.2 from Inforium when ordering LivePage.  Other
programs included are a Browser, Updater, Viewer, and Style Editor.  You
can also extend their Browser using the Developer's Toolkit and
development tools like PowerBuilder.  You can get all this for $995 which
I think is a reasonable price for what you are getting.  I am not done
reviewing LivePage yet, but so far it looks great.

Michael Pash
Nomura Enterprise Inc.
NomuraEnt@aol.com
</message>
<message id="<JANS.95Sep6214439@pavidus.matematik.su.se>" date="3019405478" seqno="10668">
From: jans@pavidus.matematik.su.se (Jan Snellman)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: sgmls and HTML 3.0
Date: 06 Sep 1995 19:44:38 GMT
Organization: Department of Mathematics, Stockholm University
Message-ID: \<JANS.95Sep6214439@pavidus.matematik.su.se>

Please help a SGML newbie...
I want to use sgmls in conjunction with psgml to edit and validiate a
collection of html files. When I use this on simple handcrafted sgml
docs, everything works fine. However, when I try to edit documents
with doctype 
    \<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 3.0//EN">
several problems arise:

1) psgml seems to still use html 2.0 dtd; perhaps the existance of a
certain .ces file causes this?
2) sgmls fails big time, complaining about 
	a) tag names/ attribute names are too long 
	b) latin 1 entities not found
	c) math entities not found

I can understand a) and c): there exists a sgml declaration file that
starts with
\<!SGML  "ISO 8879:1986"
--
        SGML Declaration for HyperText Markup Language (HTML).


and contains the lines
   LITLEN   1024
                  NAMELEN  72    -- somewhat arbitrary; taken from
                                internet line length conventions --
                  PILEN    1024
                  TAGLEN   2100

This seems to cater for the attribute lengths. The problem is, where
do I install this file to take advantage of it?
About c),  obviously I need math enties, but where can they be found?
b) really confuses me, since I have the Added_Latin1 entity file
installed.

Btw, I am using sgmls version 1.1 and psgml version 1.0a6.
</message>
<message id="<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org>" date="3019411725" seqno="10669">
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Epsilons
Date: 06 Sep 1995 21:28:45 GMT
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Message-ID: \<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org>
In-reply-to: davep@ACM.ORG's message of 31 Aug 1995 17:42:53 GMT

In article <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org> davep@ACM.ORG writes:

   "egr" is from the entity set intended to be used for short passages
   in Greek.  Can we have a comment from a Greek publisher as to which
   glyph they use?

In the rest of the post, let's call the glyph that looks like a C with
a horizontal bar in the middle, C-eps, and the one that looks like a
mirror-image 3, 3-eps.

      C-eps    3-eps

       **       **
      *        *
      **        **
      *        *
       **       **

The answer is: it depends.  Both variants are used for Greek texts.
3-eps is probably more common in most modern fonts, but C-eps may be
used more by classicists.  It would be ridiculous to define the
distinction at the entity level, just as it would be ridiculous to
have different entities for Latin lowercase "a" in its two forms

    ***            ***
       *          *   *
    ****    vs.   *   *
   *   *          *   *
    *****          *** *

As it happens, the right-side form is probably used more often for
variables in mathematics, for the simple reason that many italic and
sans-serif fonts use that variant, while the left-side form is used
more often in continuous text (except for children's literature).  Do
we need entities \&amath; \&atext; and \&achildren; ?

   ...a pamphlet on mathematical typesetting... asserted
   that... mathematicians usually use the "round e" so that it is not
   confused with the set membership sign, when they want the greek
   letter epsilon to use as a symbol.

I just looked at a few math books on my shelf.  For variables, some
use 3-eps and others use C-eps.  For set membership, some use variants
of 3-eps and others use variants of C-eps, but in both cases the
symbol is distinctive -- for instance, in one book, it is a lightface
C-eps with a larger x-height than a normal letter, in another, it is a
3-eps in non-slanted bold (whereas variables are not bold, and are
slanted or italic).  In some books, 3-eps is used for variables, and a
variant 3-eps is used for set membership.

   I suspect the answer will be that "egr" should be the round e
   epsilon.

Why should an entity refer to a particular glyph?!

   But I would argue that, really, it should be simply "epsilon in short
   greek passages", and that the style/font of the publisher decides what
   the glyph looks like...

Exactly.

   This doesn't, of course, apply to the other epsilons, which are
   intended for language-independent use as mathematical symbols.
   There, the author may well need to specify one or the other.  Since
   the most common usage in mathematics is the round e glyph, I'd
   expect that the other would be the "variant".

"Variant" is a poor way to describe the semantics of a character.  It
seems that there are two entities needed here, one for the Greek
character epsilon, and one for the mathematical symbol "set
membership".  The glyph to use for Greek character epsilon will depend
on the particular style in use.  In particular, the fonts usually used
to print Greek letters in mathematics are not suitable for printing
continuous Greek text.  The glyph to use for set membership will
probably be similar to an epsilon, but will have been designed
specifically for that application.

	-s
</message>
<message id="<19950906T231254Z@naggum.no>" date="3019417974" seqno="10670">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: 06 Sep 1995 23:12:54 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950906T231254Z@naggum.no>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <42k4k1$14h@dub-news-svc-1.compuserve.com> <9509061912.AA25739@fly.hiwaay.net>

[Len Bullard]

|   I certainly can't speak for Mr. Clark, but:
|   
|   1.  If he does not desire such activity, he could offer a company
|       willing to offer "full, commercial-grade support for SP for a
|       license fee of $299" the source to support.  I think he would get
|       takers on the offer if it was exclusive.  Should he do so, it would
|       be interesting if the same company used its profits to create a
|       line of similarly priced tools for SGML.  There are probably a few
|       thousand of us who would work for such a company.

the file COPYING in the SP distribution allows all of what you say except
any hope of exclusivity.  commercial-grade support for free software is
possible, and good business.  Cygnus Support of Mountain View, CA, provides
commercial support for GNU software, of reportedly high quality, and to a
price that people are willing to pay.

|   2.  If he does that, where go the rest of us for whom the price was
|       right to begin with?  Do we roll over because someone hired
|       incompetent managers?

free software allows anybody to make money off of supporting it for those
requiring a responsible commercial entity to support them.  I don't think
one could make billions of dollars this way, but good money can be made.
the fact that anybody can start supporting a given piece of free software
spells "competition" and "freedom of choice" to me, as supposed to being
hosed by incompetent managers who pretend to own software.  it also means
you can't hire ten incompetent people for every competent and charge the
same price for all of them, like the big cuonsulting companies tend to do.
however, I would like to see a requirement that any improvements or bug
fixes must be shared with the author/maintainer after it has been paid for.
(this is no different from paying for the use of patents or copyrighted
material, excent the currency of exchange is somewhat unusual to most
managers.)

#\<Erik 3019417974>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<42l7gb$ekg@orchard.la.locus.com>" date="3019415499" seqno="10671">
From: "R.R. Butte" \<rrb@locus.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Other language fonts in html...
Date: 6 Sep 1995 22:31:39 GMT
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation
Message-ID: <42l7gb$ekg@orchard.la.locus.com>

Hi,

	Sorry if this is in a FAQ I haven't seen... but is there a way or
	a plan to handle other languages such as Hebrew, Cyrillic [russian],
	Hindi, Sanskrit, Thai, etc etc in html?

	I know English/European languages are the lingua franca of the
	internet thanks to ascii, but what about the rest of the world?

	I think I saw a transliteration, with accents, of Bengali into
	html, and was wondering where the body of knowledge is at regarding
	fonts other than ISO 8859-1.  

	Any pointers would be appreciated.

	Thanks

	-Raymond Butte
-- 

-	Less heat, more light.		
--
rrb@locus.com

</message>
<message id="<42lcv7$al3@imagine.convex.com>" date="3019421095" seqno="10672">
From: ehood@news.eng.convex.com (Earl Hood)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Documenting a DTD (was Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!)
Date: 6 Sep 1995 19:04:55 -0500
Organization: Engineering, Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx USA
Message-ID: <42lcv7$al3@imagine.convex.com>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org> <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>

In article <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>,
Peter Murray-Rust  \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>(BTW one problem I have is how to *document* my DTDs?  If I use SGML comments
>they are stripped out before, say, getting into dtd2html so that the elements
>appear with no comments.  Is there any analogue to Knuth's literate programming
>where DTDs can contain both 'code' and documentation?  Otherwise it seems that
>the task of keeping the documentation in sync with the DTD is difficult.)

In essence, the comments you add to the DTD is documentation, like
comments in a C program.  The problem is you want to make sense of
comments via an sgml parser, so you can generate a 'english' document
of the DTD.  It's like asking the C compiler to generate a (readable)
document of source code based upon the comments.

I realized the maintenence problem when writing dtd2html so that is why
I added the -updateel option.  After the initial task of creating the
first description file, you can use -updateel to perform incremental
changes to a DTD w/o recreating a description file from scratch.
-updateel will preserve all your description text and notify you of new
elements/attributes and of removed elements/attributes.  If content
model changes need to be checked, you can use dtddiff.

	--ewh
</message>
<message id="<42kr2q$mhp@easy2.easynet.com>" date="3019402778" seqno="10673">
From: murrayb@easy1.easynet.com (Murray J. Bent)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML as alternate representation
Date: 6 Sep 1995 18:59:38 GMT
Organization: http://www.MediaCity.com 415 321 6800
Message-ID: <42kr2q$mhp@easy2.easynet.com>

SGML is an alternate representation of ASN.1 according
to the way ISO standards relate to each other, so how
do I translate from one to the other? 

I'd like to start by translating SGML into ASN.1.

cheers
murray bent
----------------------------------------------------
Stop nuclear testing in Polynesia, resume it in Paris.

</message>
<message id="<42l61h$crq@morgan.vf.mmc.com>" date="3019414001" seqno="10674">
From: Chris Arena \<ccarena@pims01.psf.ge.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: #CONREF interpretation
Date: 6 Sep 1995 22:06:41 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Corp, Valley Forge PA
Message-ID: <42l61h$crq@morgan.vf.mmc.com>
To: ccarena@pims01.psf.ge.com

Could anyone explain the use of IDREF with #CONREF as in

\<!ELEMENT text - -  (#PCDATA) >
\<!ATTLIST text
          id     ID     #IMPLIED
          ref    IDREF  #CONREF
          type   CDATA  #REQUIRED
>

??????

I'm interested in how the required attribute is treated
in the context of a ref, ie:

..
\<TEXT id="ReferencingText" ref="ReferencedText">
\<!-- no end tag for this TEXT -->
..

  then, somewhere else ....

\<TEXT id="ReferencedText" type="data">
asdf asdf asdf asdf ...
\</TEXT>

How should the parser treat this?

Thanks in advance

Chris Arena
Lockheed Martin Defense Systems, Pittsfield
ccarena@pims01.psf.ge.com

</message>
<message id="<42lhpo$41m@data.interserv.net>" date="3019426040" seqno="10675">
From: censign@interserv.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML and ISO 9000?
Date: 7 Sep 1995 01:27:20 GMT
Organization: Logical Design Solutions, Inc.
Message-ID: <42lhpo$41m@data.interserv.net>

Has anyone been working on an SGML application for ISO 9000 
certification documents? I was asked today and didn't know 
the answer. Seems like a natural. 

/chet 
-- 
Chet Ensign                      censign@interserv.com
Logical Design Solutions, Inc.   +1 908 771 9221      


</message>
<message id="<DEIno0.6Kt@freenet.carleton.ca>" date="3019434192" seqno="10676">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: av533@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Anatole Niala)
Subject: metered links
Message-ID: \<DEIno0.6Kt@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: av533@freenet3.carleton.ca (Anatole Niala)
Reply-To: av533@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Anatole Niala)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 03:43:12 GMT

This is more a HTML question than a generic SGML issue.
I am trying to establish links (to remote files) as usual with
HTML but I would like to stipulate the amount of data which is
to be sent. This could be just a number of bytes, or "all text
to the end of the element" or anything like that.

Is there some option in \<A href=..., or some other trick to achieve
this "limited"response.

Also, is there a syntax allowing me to link to several targets (many)
in one statement, and let the browser upload them all in one scoop?

Thanks for your help.

</message>
<message id="<SCHULZE.95Sep7065818@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de>" date="3019438698" seqno="10677">
From: schulze@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de (Bruno Maximilian Schulze)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: list of SGML tools
Date: 07 Sep 1995 04:58:18 GMT
Organization: IMS, University of Stuttgart, Germany
Message-ID: \<SCHULZE.95Sep7065818@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de>
References: \<susan-0509951537300001@semiramis.gordian.com>
Reply-To: schulze@ims.uni-stuttgart.de
In-reply-to: susan@gordian.com's message of Tue, 5 Sep 1995 22:37:30 GMT

>>>>> "Susan" == Susan Gallagher \<susan@gordian.com> writes:

    Susan> I got a copy of Steve Pepper's SGML tools list last year.
    Susan> It was from 11/93 and listed all sorts of SGML books,
    Susan> tools, etc. It was extremely helpful. Anyone know of an
    Susan> updated list of this type?

Yes, there is an updated version of this list available. I got it some
days ago from http://www.falch.no, and it's from January 19th, 1995. 

BTW, does anyone here know of good sites where most of the PD tools
mentioned in that paper are available?

Best,

Max
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno Maximilian Schulze           | Institute of Natural Language Processing 
Tel:  +49-711-121-1367             | University of Stuttgart
Fax:  +49-711-121-1366             | Azenbergstr. 12
email:schulze@ims.uni-stuttgart.de | D-70174 Stuttgart, Germany
URL: http://www.ims.uni-stuttgart.de/IMS.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<42mb30$h9h@macondo.dmu.ac.uk>" date="3019451936" seqno="10678">
From: djh@dmu.ac.uk (Dave Houghton)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGMLS and ISOlat1.sgml
Date: 7 Sep 1995 08:38:56 GMT
Organization: De Montfort University, Leicester, UK
Message-ID: <42mb30$h9h@macondo.dmu.ac.uk>
Reply-To: djh@dmu.ac.uk

Thanks to Steve Pepper who pointed out that if we change 

\<!ENTITY ISOlat1 PUBLIC "ISO//...whatever">

in the DTD to

\<!ENTITY ISOlat1 PUBLIC "ISO//...whatever" "ISOlat1.sgml">

then we can use sgmls to parse the html.dtd 

</message>
<message id="<42mr9a$gks@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3019468522" seqno="10679">
From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: sgmls and HTML 3.0
Date: 7 Sep 1995 13:15:22 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
Message-ID: <42mr9a$gks@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>
References: \<JANS.95Sep6214439@pavidus.matematik.su.se>
Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com

Jan Snellman (jans@pavidus.matematik.su.se) wrote:
: Please help a SGML newbie...

: This seems to cater for the attribute lengths. The problem is, where
: do I install this file to take advantage of it?
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

1) give the SGMLdecl filename before the instance on sgmls command
line. (ex: sgmls -s html.decl testdoc.html)

OR

2) stick it in the same file infront of the \<!DOCTYPE declaration.

--
  Tad McClellan,      Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy)
                      email: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com
  Just be thankful we don't get all the government we pay for!
</message>
<message id="<42ms0b$3qu@erinews.ericsson.se>" date="3019469259" seqno="10680">
From: Peter Gerken TX/FX \<etxpger>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Encoding a '>'?
Date: 7 Sep 1995 13:27:39 GMT
Organization: Ericsson
Message-ID: <42ms0b$3qu@erinews.ericsson.se>
References: <4222cp$qne$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> <19950830T183922Z@naggum.no>
To: etxpger

From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Encoding a '>'?
Date: 30 Aug 1995 18:39:22 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950830T183922Z@naggum.no>
References: <4222cp$qne$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com>

[Peter Zingg]

|   Dumb and dumber question: how do you put a literal '>' or '<' into your
|   HTML document, without screwing up the parser?

in SGML, there are several ways.  HTML browsers are notoriously lacking in
their ability to parse SGML correctly, so this may not apply to you, but
you should at least know what a Real SGML System is supposed to do:

a > is never a problem in SGML.  it is always a data character if
encountered on its own.

a < is a problem only when followed by a letter.  in that case, you can
insert a space after it if that doesn't disturb the data.  if it disturbs
the data, insert \<!>, instead.  that's an empty comment, and it will be
removed during parsing, after the < has been interpreted as data.

some like to use entities for this, and I believe HTML recommends that, in
which case David's reply applies.

note that Netscape disallows > in literal strings such that \<a href="xxx>">
is interpreted as if it were \<a href="xxx">">.  \<pipedream>flame Netscape
for this, and have them pay the world's HTML authors to fix the documents
that they mistakenly believed were either correct or incorrect.\</pipedream>

#\<Erik 3018796761>
-- 
they accepted the results of science, but rejected its methods.

</message>
<message id="<42mt7p$gks@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3019470521" seqno="10681">
From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: #CONREF interpretation
Date: 7 Sep 1995 13:48:41 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
Message-ID: <42mt7p$gks@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>
References: <42l61h$crq@morgan.vf.mmc.com>
Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com

Chris Arena (ccarena@pims01.psf.ge.com) wrote:
: Could anyone explain the use of IDREF with #CONREF as in

: \<!ELEMENT text - -  (#PCDATA) >
: \<!ATTLIST text
:           id     ID     #IMPLIED
:           ref    IDREF  #CONREF
:           type   CDATA  #REQUIRED
: >


: I'm interested in how the required attribute is treated
: in the context of a ref, ie:

: \<TEXT id="ReferencingText" ref="ReferencedText">

:   then, somewhere else ....

: \<TEXT id="ReferencedText" type="data">
: asdf asdf asdf asdf ...
: \</TEXT>

: How should the parser treat this?


As an error. The text element with ref attribute is missing a 
required attribute. I fed this example to sgmls and got the error
message shown (NAMEs mangled to <= 8 chars):
---------------------------------------------
\<!DOCTYPE reftst [

\<!ELEMENT reftst - - (text+) >

\<!ELEMENT text - - (#PCDATA) >
\<!ATTLIST text
          id     ID     #IMPLIED
          ref    IDREF  #CONREF
          type   CDATA  #REQUIRED
>

]>


\<reftst>
   \<text id="ingText" ref="edText">
   \<text id="edText" type="data">asdf asdf asdf asdf\</text>
\</reftst>
---------------------------------------------
sgmls: SGML error at reftst.sgm, line 16 at """:
       Required TYPE attribute was not specified; may affect processing



sgmls is silent when fed:
---------------------------------------------
\<!DOCTYPE reftst [

\<!ELEMENT reftst - - (text+) >

\<!ELEMENT text - - (#PCDATA) >
\<!ATTLIST text
          id     ID     #IMPLIED
          ref    IDREF  #CONREF
          type   CDATA  #REQUIRED
>

]>


\<reftst>
   \<text id="ingText" ref="edText" type="notdata">
\<!--                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  -->
   \<text id="edText" type="data">asdf asdf asdf asdf\</text>
\</reftst>
---------------------------------------------

I have often wondered (couldn't find it addressed in SGML_Handbook)
whether the application is supposed to treat the \<text> as 'notdata' (as in
CONREFed text) or as 'data' (as in the referenced text). i.e. does CONREFed
attribute override the referenced attribute?


I assume it is application specific. Anyone care to agree/disagree?


--
  Tad McClellan,      Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy)
                      email: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com
  Interesting trivia: If you took all the sand in North Africa and spread
     it out... it would cover the Sahara desert.
</message>
<message id="<42mvek$dvg@murphy.servtech.com>" date="3019470769" seqno="10682">
From: "Steven R. Newcomb" \<srn@techno.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Documenting DTD's (was Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 09:52:49 -0400
Organization: TechnoTeacher, Inc.
Message-ID: <42mvek$dvg@murphy.servtech.com>

> |> (BTW one problem I have is how to *document* my DTDs?  If I use SGML comments
> |> they are stripped out before, say, getting into dtd2html so that the elements
> |> appear with no comments.  Is there any analogue to Knuth's literate programming
> |> where DTDs can contain both 'code' and documentation?  Otherwise it seems that
> |> the task of keeping the documentation in sync with the DTD is difficult.)
> 
> [...]
> 
> This is an interesting general problem. 

You might want to check out the Conventions for the Application of
HyTime (CApH) drafts regarding this problem: ftp://ftp.techno.com/pub/CApH/docs.


***************************************************************
*          Steven R. Newcomb | President                      *
*     direct +1 716 389 0964 | TechnoTeacher, Inc.            *
*       main +1 716 389 0961 | (courier: 3800 Monroe Avenue,  *
*        fax +1 716 389 0960 |  Pittsford, NY 14534-1330 USA) *
*   Internet: srn@techno.com | P.O. Box 23795                 *
*        FTP: ftp.techno.com | Rochester, New York 14692-3795 *
* WWW: http://www.techno.com | USA                            *
***************************************************************
</message>
<message id="<GTN.95Sep7102338@ebt-inc>" date="3019472618" seqno="10683">
From: gtn@ebt-inc (Gavin Nicol)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Other language fonts in html...
Date: 07 Sep 1995 14:23:38 GMT
Organization: Electronic Book Technologies, Inc.
Message-ID: \<GTN.95Sep7102338@ebt-inc>
References: <42l7gb$ekg@orchard.la.locus.com>
In-reply-to: "R.R. Butte"'s message of 6 Sep 1995 22:31:39 GMT

>        Sorry if this is in a FAQ I haven't seen... but is there a way or
>        a plan to handle other languages such as Hebrew, Cyrillic [russian],
>        Hindi, Sanskrit, Thai, etc etc in html?
 
Yes. I have been working on getting I18N support into the WWW for
almost a year now, and it finally looks like some changes will be
made. Some pointers for information:
 
My paper (rather rough in places, but it gives a reasonable overview
of the issues) The Multilingual WWW \<http://www.ebt.com/>.

The HTML working group mailing list archives at
\<http://www.acl.lanl.gov/HTML_WG/archives.html>

Also, the W3C has some good jumping off points as well
\<http://www.w3.org/> 

--

Gavin Thomas Nicol                | He who will not reason, is a bigot;
Electronic Book Technologies      | he who cannot is a fool; 
Email:      gtn@ebt.com           | and he who dares not is a slave. 
Phone/FAX:  +81-3-3706-7351       |       --- Sir William Drummond

</message>
<message id="<42muqb$sov@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>" date="3019472139" seqno="10684">
From: vaesenw@btkp82.EE2x (Walter Vaesen ext. 3454)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: 7 Sep 1995 14:15:39 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Message-ID: <42muqb$sov@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
References: <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: vaesenw@btkp82.EE2x



</message>
<message id="<42nc8k$aem@crl2.crl.com>" date="3019485908" seqno="10685">
From: jenglish@crl.com (Joe English)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: #CONREF interpretation
Date: 7 Sep 1995 11:05:08 -0700
Organization: Mentally ill venomous purists with strange emotional drives
Message-ID: <42nc8k$aem@crl2.crl.com>
References: <42l61h$crq@morgan.vf.mmc.com>


Chris Arena  \<ccarena@pims01.psf.ge.com> wrote:
>Could anyone explain the use of IDREF with #CONREF as in
>
>\<!ELEMENT text - -  (#PCDATA) >
>\<!ATTLIST text
>          id     ID     #IMPLIED
>          ref    IDREF  #CONREF
>          type   CDATA  #REQUIRED
>>

Let me guess: you've read Martin Bryan's "SGML: An Author's Guide",
and are (understandably) confused :-)  The explanation of #CONREF in
that book is somewhat misleading.

IDREF (the _declared value_) and #CONREF (the _default value_)
are completely orthogonal.  In particular, #CONREF has the
same meaning no matter what the declared value is.

>I'm interested in how the required attribute is treated
>in the context of a ref, ie:
>
>\<TEXT id="ReferencingText" ref="ReferencedText">
>\<!-- no end tag for this TEXT -->
>....
>\<TEXT id="ReferencedText" type="data">
>asdf asdf asdf asdf ...
>\</TEXT>
>
>How should the parser treat this?


    (1) The first \<TEXT> element will have no content or end-tag
        (as you point out), because a value has been specified for
        the 'REF' content reference attribute.

    (2) The parser will ensure that "REFERENCEDTEXT" appears 
        as the ID of some element in the document, because 
        'REF' has a declared value of IDREFS.


That's all!  The parser would do step (1) for any #CONREF attribute
(regardless of its declared value), and it would do step (2) for
any IDREF or IDREFS attribute (regardless of its default value).

The intent may be to copy the content of the referenced
element ("asdf asdf asdf asdf ...") to the point where
the referencing element appears, but it's up to the application
to do this processing.  (A HyTime engine can do this with the 'conloc' 
feature, for example.)



--Joe English

  jenglish@crl.com
</message>
<message id="<42nb41$60c@hopper.acm.org>" date="3019484736" seqno="10686">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Epsilons
Date: 7 Sep 1995 17:45:36 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <42nb41$60c@hopper.acm.org>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org>,\<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article \<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org>,
 macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:
>In article <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org> davep@ACM.ORG writes:

>   This doesn't, of course, apply to the other epsilons, which are
>   intended for language-independent use as mathematical symbols.
>   There, the author may well need to specify one or the other.  Since
>   the most common usage in mathematics is the round e glyph, I'd
>   expect that the other would be the "variant".
>
>"Variant" is a poor way to describe the semantics of a character.  It
>seems that there are two entities needed here, one for the Greek
>character epsilon, and one for the mathematical symbol "set
>membership".  The glyph to use for Greek character epsilon will depend
>on the particular style in use.  In particular, the fonts usually used
>to print Greek letters in mathematics are not suitable for printing
>continuous Greek text.  The glyph to use for set membership will
>probably be similar to an epsilon, but will have been designed
>specifically for that application.

Thanks for the Greek point of view.  I suspect that mathematicians
will tend to want the particular glyph printed that they are accustomed
to writing on black/green/whiteboards.  This, after all, is the
reason we now have "blackboard bold" (not bold, but extra vertical
lines) fonts.  (First we had bold-font variables, then mathematicians
came up with a way to represent them with fixed-thin-width chalk line
characters, and finally those mathematicians demanded a font that looked
like what they wrote on the board.)

Sounds like the ACM manual of the 50s was going by the classical greek
printing style.  I know that the set membership sign is now a much different
glyph from the usual "C-epsilon", but mathematicians can't do a good job
differentiating them on a blackboard.  This is why they tend to use the
3-epsilon.  Non-Greek mathematicians hand-copying an epsilon from printed
text will tend to copy the _glyph_, rather than switch to "handwriting font"
for the _character_--but the result will be read as though in "handwriting
font", wherein the C-epsilon glyph and set-membership glyph are hard to
distinguish.

I've misplaced my 10646, but I seem to remember that they use the 3-epsilon
glyph for the ordinary epsilon in the ordinary Greek font.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<42mmn3$40v@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>" date="3019463843" seqno="10687">
From: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGMLS and ISOlat1.sgml
Date: 7 Sep 1995 11:57:23 GMT
Organization: Student Pool, CSD., University of Erlangen
Message-ID: <42mmn3$40v@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <42jjv4$8uf@macondo.dmu.ac.uk>
Reply-To: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de

djh@dmu.ac.uk (Dave Houghton) writes:

>I am using sgmls to parse HTML files but keep
>getting the following errors

>sgmls: Warning at html.dtd, line 83 in declaration parameter 5:
>       Could not find external parameter entity "ISOlat1"

>I am reliably informed that I need to set an environmental
>variable SGML_PATH. I am using UNIX k shell. Any suggestions
>how I can pick up ISOlat1.sgml file.

First you need the "ISOlat1.sgml" and "catalog" file which are part of the
"HTML 2.0 public text" package available from www.w3.org.

Then simply start

  nsgmls -m catalog \<your-html-file-here>

BTW: nsgmls is the newer version of sgmls which is now distributed with
James Clark's SP 0.4 software.

Markus

---
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -- University of Erlangen,
Internet Mail: \<mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> - Germany
WWW Home: \<http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/user/mskuhn>
</message>
<message id="<42mne7$41c@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>" date="3019464583" seqno="10688">
From: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML Tags
Date: 7 Sep 1995 12:09:43 GMT
Organization: Student Pool, CSD., University of Erlangen
Message-ID: <42mne7$41c@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <427n5s$arc@hopper.acm.org>
Reply-To: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de

davep@ACM.ORG writes:

>It occurs to me that SGML element types are analgous to programming
>language (e.g., C) variables:  SGML doesnt prescribe what element
>types you must use just as C doesn't prescribe what variables and
>functions you must use.  Is a DTD then analagous to a ".h" file?

As we have been collecting analogies for SGML for some time, here is
the best I have found so far:

  SGML                 is like   ASN.1
  A DTD                is like   a protocol specified in ASN.1 (e.g. X.400)
  A SGML document      is like   a data packet (e.g. one X.400 e-mail message)
  The reference syntax is like   the basic encoding rules (BER) of ASN.1

It seems that SGML and ASN.1 are conceptually pretty much the same thing.

The difference is:

ASN.1 specifies compact binary protocol messages and file formats, were
SGML is optimized for document handling applications and for document
encodings which are processable with ASCII editors. In addition,
ASN.1 has a little bit stronger typing mechanisms than SGML (it knows
about "attribute types like UTCTime") and may be since ASN.1(1993) with
its class extensions, it is also more suitable to express semantics
more formally that just in comment lines.

SGML has often been compared with ODA, which is pretty much bogus. ODA is
a file format specified in ASN.1, so it can conceptually only be compared
with a specific SGML DTD.

Markus

---
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -- University of Erlangen,
Internet Mail: \<mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> - Germany
WWW Home: \<http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/user/mskuhn>
</message>
<message id="<1995Sep7.191820.20075@relay.acadiau.ca>" date="3019490300" seqno="10689">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: 911288c@dragon.acadiau.ca (EDwin Chung)
Subject: Re: DATA ??
Message-ID: <1995Sep7.191820.20075@relay.acadiau.ca>
Sender: news@relay.acadiau.ca
Organization: Acadia University
References: <1995Sep4.141645.10421@relay.acadiau.ca>
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 19:18:20 GMT

911288c@dragon.acadiau.ca (EDwin Chung) writes:

>hi, anyone can help me how to define DATA ??

>DATA /* characters */ 		---> [a-zA-Z] ???

hi

	What is meaning of PCDATA ???

	only [a-zA-Z] ??

ed
</message>
<message id="<19950907T220351Z@naggum.no>" date="3019500231" seqno="10690">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Epsilons
Date: 07 Sep 1995 22:03:51 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950907T220351Z@naggum.no>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org> \<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org>

[Stavros Macrakis]

|   Why should an entity refer to a particular glyph?!

this is the crux of the problem.  as you point out with the two "variants"
of lower-case `a', the character-to-glyph mapping is none of SGML's
business.

SGML does a reasonably good job of separating characters from glyphs in the
core language, but the "standard" entity sets are disgraceful in their
muddying of this very important issue.  the ISO 9375 entity sets should be
abandoned, and a mechanism to map characters to glyphs should be added to
the SGML world.  (I'm not sure whether DSSSL can do the whole job.)

I see character-glyph mapping as a presentational issue, on the level of
the choice of fonts (which incidentally provide a trivial mapping).
insofar as specific glyphs are deemed essential to the information,
characters should be used that have only one glyph defined each.

#\<Erik 3019500231>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<19950907T221001Z@naggum.no>" date="3019500601" seqno="10691">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Epsilons
Date: 07 Sep 1995 22:10:01 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950907T221001Z@naggum.no>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org>,\<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org> <42nb41$60c@hopper.acm.org>

[Dave Peterson]

|   I've misplaced my 10646, but I seem to remember that they use the
|   3-epsilon glyph for the ordinary epsilon in the ordinary Greek font.

this is unfortunately irrelevant.  ISO 10646 is not a glyph collection.

#\<Erik 3019500601>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<19950907T223621Z@naggum.no>" date="3019502181" seqno="10692">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Documenting a DTD (was Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!)
Date: 07 Sep 1995 22:36:21 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950907T223621Z@naggum.no>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org> <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <42lcv7$al3@imagine.convex.com>

[Earl Hood] (in response to Peter Murray-Rust)

|   In essence, the comments you add to the DTD is documentation, like
|   comments in a C program.  The problem is you want to make sense of
|   comments via an sgml parser, so you can generate a "english" document
|   of the DTD.  It's like asking the C compiler to generate a (readable)
|   document of source code based upon the comments.

this is because C lacks support for documentation in its programming
environments.  if documentation had been an integral part of the language,
comments would have a different function, and the unfortunate confusion of
comments and documentation would not occur.  in most Lisp systems (not
including Scheme this time) documentation is an integrated part of the
language, and separate functions are available to extract it.  since it is
impossible to write in any language without access to documentation, one
must find other ways to communicate the documentation than using SGML
itself.  this is unfortunate in a language intended to help people both
write and process documentation.

I would like to see direct support of documentation somewhat like this:

    \<!ELEMENT p (...)
      "Paragraph.  Often implicit in other elements.">
    \<!ATTLIST p
      id ID #IMPLIED "Supply this if you want to link to the element."
    >

(such features can be added to the language with impunity.)

it is my strongly held opinion that comments should not be made available
to the program processing the semantics of a language.  if "comments" is
deemed to be useful, they are not really comments, but something else that
should be differentiated from comments.  (in editing applications, one does
not process the semantics of the language, and comments should certainly be
available.)

#\<Erik 3019502181>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<19950907T224235Z@naggum.no>" date="3019502555" seqno="10693">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML as alternate representation
Date: 07 Sep 1995 22:42:35 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950907T224235Z@naggum.no>
References: <42kr2q$mhp@easy2.easynet.com>

[Murray J. Bent]

|   SGML is an alternate representation of ASN.1 according to the way ISO
|   standards relate to each other, so how do I translate from one to the
|   other?

ASN.1 is a structuring language, and so is SGML.  this is not to say that
they are equally powerful or even isomorphous.  in ASN.1, for instance, the
tags are local to a particular construct (CHOICE), while in SGML, tags are
global.  in ASN.1, great care is given to typing data.  SGML couldn't care
less.

|   I'd like to start by translating SGML into ASN.1.

from a pedagogical point of view, the opposite starting point is much
better if you wish to explore the languages.  it may also have real value.

#\<Erik 3019502555>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<9509070237.AA14361@fly.hiwaay.net>" date="3019430246" seqno="10694">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Approved: erik@naggum.no
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 21:37:26 -0500
Message-ID: <9509070237.AA14361@fly.hiwaay.net>
From: Len Bullard \<cbullard@hiwaay.net>
References: <42h14a$lc2@news.Belgium.EU.net> <42cnfv$imd@hopper.acm.org>
Subject: Two Good Articles

Loud cheers for Jacque Deseyne and Dave Petersen, for two very good
articles.

A question for Jacque: How do you rate Word SGML for productivity?

From what you say, the only production advantage added by all the hard work
is SGML export and this is useful only if the SGML instance is part of
another process (e.g., reuse in a hypertext browser, fodder for a database,
etc.)  The other advantages are lost in the failure to compile the DTD and
drive the user interface with it.  Integration with other Microsoft apps is
best done through the macro interface or using the OLE automation features.
So other than export to SGML-aware systems or SGML archival, there seem to
be few advantages.

[Dave Petersen]

|   It would appear that the author of this material, judging by the
|   comment in the DTD which says "The role of SGML document entity is
|   filled by this DTD, followed by the conventional HTML data stream", was
|   also confused as to just what a DTD is.  Lets not perpetuate the
|   error--we need common terminology to communicate.

While this is true from the SGML point of view and we are on CTS, here, the
"data stream" description is accurate from the point of view of the libWWW
architecture documents in which the notation instances are described as
"data streams" in the block diagrams.  We need common terminology, no
doubt, but this may not be confusion as much as overlapping information
ecologies.

Just like standards to come alive.  Now, they'll want to vote too.  ;-)

Len Bullard
</message>
<message id="<19950907T225942Z@naggum.no>" date="3019503582" seqno="10695">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: #CONREF interpretation
Date: 07 Sep 1995 22:59:42 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950907T225942Z@naggum.no>
References: <42l61h$crq@morgan.vf.mmc.com>

[Chris Arena]

|   Could anyone explain the use of IDREF with #CONREF as in
|   
|   \<!ELEMENT text - -  (#PCDATA) >
|   \<!ATTLIST text
|             id     ID     #IMPLIED
|             ref    IDREF  #CONREF
|             type   CDATA  #REQUIRED
|   >

this _only_ means that "text" is empty if "ref" is supplied.

|   I'm interested in how the required attribute is treated
|   in the context of a ref, ie:
|   ..
|   \<TEXT id="ReferencingText" ref="ReferencedText">
|   \<!-- no end tag for this TEXT -->
|   ..
|   
|     then, somewhere else ....
|   
|   \<TEXT id="ReferencedText" type="data">
|   asdf asdf asdf asdf ...
|   \</TEXT>
|   
|   How should the parser treat this?

should the parser treat this?  no.

the difficulty in understanding this feature in SGML is that SGML makes no
pretense to say anything about the semantics of its constructs.  one way to
use this feature is of course to let the application pick up the data from
the referenced element, but the possibilities are so many that it would be
restricting if SGML specified any of them.  of course, it may also be
restricting people's creativity to provide no foundation to start from.
whether the former restriction is worse than the latter.  I tend to think
that examples are useful as a base for intuition and creativity, and if
they are used as "templates" by copy-cats and restrict people's ability or
willingness to play, they are working against their original purpose and
should be abandoned in favor of teaching fundamentals.  good examples are
so hard to make that more people should consider whether they are useful,
even though the current trend in documentation is away from understanding
towards immediate use.

#\<Erik 3019503582>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<42oekl$1er@news.csie.nctu.edu.tw>" date="3019521109" seqno="10696">
From: Lian Chien-chin \<s831742@moon.yzit.edu.tw>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: What is SBENTO?
Date: 8 Sep 1995 03:51:49 GMT
Organization: YZIT CSIE
Message-ID: <42oekl$1er@news.csie.nctu.edu.tw>

Does anyone can tell me what is SBENTO? And where can I

get more information about it?

</message>
<message id="<810541160snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>" date="3019529960" seqno="10697">
From: Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Literate DTD's
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 95 06:19:20 GMT
Organization: Myorganisation
Message-ID: <810541160snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
References: <42mvek$dvg@murphy.servtech.com>
Reply-To: Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk

Literate DTDs

I have hacked a simple example of Literate programming for a DTD.  
("Knuth's literate programming" ... Donald E Knuth is a revered computer
scientist whose work includes the TeX and METAFONT systems.  He also 
proposed that programs should be written to include both code and 
documentation, and the TeX system is distributed in this way.  Tools
like tangle act on the code (web2c) to create *.c and *.tex files)

Below is a simple DTD which can act both as a DTD *and* a document instance
of another DTD (doc.dtd).  In the latter case, the *documentation* is
processed and output as ESIS where it could be further formatted
automatically.  

Some of the DTDs I have seen recently seem poorly documented as standalone
documents, and this would be a simple way of enhancing them. With a little
care DTDs could be formatted such that they are still readable in this form.  
With careful positioning of marked sections it should be possible to expand the 
parameter entities into the documentation, which is something that otherwise
I find very difficult to maintain.

Please feel free to use this idea - it's free.  Or you can send money :-)

	P.

\<!-- magic.dtd                                                         -->
\<!-- Simple literate program for DTD documentation                     -->
\<!-- 
     In normal use (for a document instance magic.sgm), use:
	sgmls -i DTD sgml.decl magic.sgm
     (where magic.sgm has DOCTYPE magic)

     Create doc.dtd for documenting the DTD:
.........................................................................
\<!ELEMENT doc    - - (elem*)                                             >
\<!ELEMENT elem   - - (p*,elatt*)                                         >
\<!ATTLIST elem
        gi             CDATA                     #REQUIRED
                                                                    -- -->
\<!ELEMENT p      - O (#PCDATA)                                           >
\<!ELEMENT elatt  - - (p*)                                                >
\<!ATTLIST elatt
        att            CDATA                     #REQUIRED
                                                                         >
\<!ENTITY % DTD "IGNORE"                                                  >
\<!ENTITY % DOC "INCLUDE"                                                 >
.........................................................................
     For documenting the DTD (magic.dtd) create a file magicdoc.sgm:
.........................................................................
\<!DOCTYPE doc SYSTEM "doc.dtd" [
\<!ENTITY magic.dtd SYSTEM "magic.dtd"                                    >
]>
\<DOC>
\&magic.dtd;
\</DOC>
.........................................................................

    and run:
	sgmls -i DOC sgml.decl magicdoc.sgm
    The documented DTD is available as an ESIS and can be further 
    processed with any program which accepts the output of SGMLS
                                                                       -->
\<!-- magic.dtd starts here                                             -->
\<![ %DTD [
\<!ENTITY % DOC "IGNORE"                                                  >
\]]>
\<!-- This is a GI XYZZY, with documentation and declaration            -->
\<![ %DOC [
\<ELEM GI=XYZZY>
\<P> These are the docs for XYZZY 
\<P> XYZZY is a magic word
\<ELATT ATT=PLUGH>
\<P> This is a magic attribute
\</ELATT>\</ELEM>
\]]>
\<![ %DTD [
\<!ELEMENT magic O O (xyzzy*)                                            >
\<!ELEMENT xyzzy - - (#PCDATA)                                           >
\<!ATTLIST xyzzy 
        plugh          CDATA                    #REQUIRED               >
\]]>
\<!-- the output looks like this:

Documenting the magic DTD......................................
(DOC
AGI CDATA XYZZY
(ELEM
(P
- These are the docs for XYZZY 
)P
(P
- XYZZY is a magic word
)P
AATT CDATA PLUGH
(ELATT
(P
- This is a magic attribute
)P
)ELATT
)ELEM
)DOC
C
...............................................................
Processing a Document instance magic.sgm ......................
(MAGIC
APLUGH CDATA Y2
(XYZZY
-This is an XYZZY object in a MAGIC document instance.\\n
Its PLUGH attribute is Y2.
)XYZZY
)MAGIC
C
-->

--
Peter Murray-Rust, domestic net connexion
</message>
<message id="<42p9i9$kk3@news.Belgium.EU.net>" date="3019548681" seqno="10698">
From: Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Two Good Articles
Date: 8 Sep 1995 11:31:21 GMT
Organization: SEMA Group Belgium
Message-ID: <42p9i9$kk3@news.Belgium.EU.net>
References: <42h14a$lc2@news.Belgium.EU.net> <42cnfv$imd@hopper.acm.org> <9509070237.AA14361@fly.hiwaay.net>

Len Bullard \<cbullard@hiwaay.net> wrote:

>...
>A question for Jacque: How do you rate Word SGML for productivity?
>
>From what you say, the only production advantage added by all the hard work
>is SGML export and this is useful only if the SGML instance is part of
>another process (e.g., reuse in a hypertext browser, fodder for a database,
>etc.)  The other advantages are lost in the failure to compile the DTD and
>drive the user interface with it.  Integration with other Microsoft apps is
>best done through the macro interface or using the OLE automation features.
>So other than export to SGML-aware systems or SGML archival, there seem to
>be few advantages.
>...


Your remarks are very pertinent. Producing SGML documents is not a goal by
itself.

If you _want_ an SGML editor and you _have_ MS-Word, you could consider
to get MS Author, but there are interesting alternatives which take
less than Author's 595$ from your budget.

What good use of SGML with word processors can be thought off ?

Document production in organisations can often be enhanced. A number
of office automation departments have introduced structured authoring 
as a way to achieve uniform document structures, achieve a better
re-use of documents, impose the common house style, ... Generally,
this is done through templates, styles and macros. What lacks in
these setups is a good "validation" function.
In these office environments, there are often also well-designed 
customisation templates for producing reports, invoices and other office 
stuff, querying databases by ODBC, interacting with the user through 
clever dialog boxes, filling a table from a spreadsheet, and so on.
I imagine that some of such environments, already equipped with Word, 
may be interested in SGML Author; I also think that the validation
feedback interface should be considerably enhanced if Author wants to 
make its way into office environments.
The main benefit of using SGML is, as Len puts it, to drive the user 
interface and that's where MS SGML Author performs really badly.

Another good use of SGML add-ons to wordprocessors may be a low-cost
"typesetting" environment, to produce formatted output from SGML documents,
e.g. for proofreading or for purposes which don't really need a
professional typesetting quality. In this sense, they are the bottom end
of a line of products, going up through Ventura, FrameMaker, Interleaf, 
(to name only a few) and so on.

In all cases, these tools have to fit in a broader setup. I'm sorry to see
that commercial information for some of these add-ons promise access to the 
world of SGML, without telling that much more will be needed in order to
make the move to SGML meaningful and successful.

Best regards,


------------------------------------------------------
Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Sema Group Belgium - Stallestraat 96 - B-1180 Brussels
------------------------------------------------------


</message>
<message id="<42pam0$q8n@ruulch.let.ruu.nl>" date="3019549824" seqno="10699">
From: Arjan Loeffen \<Arjan.Loeffen@let.ruu.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: HyTime arch. forms
Date: 8 Sep 1995 11:50:24 GMT
Organization: Computer & Humanities, Fac. of Arts
Message-ID: <42pam0$q8n@ruulch.let.ruu.nl>

Dear reader,

I have a question on mapping an architectural form to an existing element
type. I hope you can explain me how to deal with the following (arch. 
forms between [..]).

1)
Suppose the following map is made:

\<!element ref - o EMPTY -- part of my own DTD -- >
\<!attlist ref type     NAME #implied
              target   IDREF #required
              -- add HyTime identification attributes --
              HyTime   NAME #fixed 'clink'
              HyNames  CDATA #fixed 'linkend target'>

In the example, the Target attribute is #required, as is the Linkend
attribute of the [clink] form. Now there is no _intrinsic_ reason 
for requiring such a value. The element may simply be ignored when no
target value is supplied. Thus

\<!attlist ref type     NAME  #implied
              target   IDREF #implied >

would semantically be correct, in the framework of 'my own DTD'. 
Now this does not align with HyTime [clink] anymore. The HyTime engine 
would not be able to process \<ref>, due to missing and essential 
information. Is this correct?

2)
In the previous, close alignment between the structural aspects of the 
\<ref> and [linkend] is essential. Only a restricted number of HyTime 
forms will have one or more counterparts as elements in the document type 
definition. Typical examples are [ilink] and [clink].

In order to exploit the power of HyTime location addressing it is assumed
the HyTime forms are instantiated by elements directly drawn from the
DTD modules defined in iso 10744. It cannot be assumed a DTD actually 
defines elements that are similar in definition to, for instance,
the [pathloc] or [treeloc] forms.

Is this correct?

Thanks in advance,
Arjan.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Arjan Loeffen           Achter de Dom 22-24  ++31+30536417  voice work
Faculty of Arts         3512JP Utrecht       ++31+206656463 voice home
University of Utrecht   The Netherlands      ++31+30539221  fax work
----------------------------------------------------------------------


</message>
<message id="<42pidu$9oh@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>" date="3019557758" seqno="10700">
From: asengupt@indiana.edu (Arijit Sengupta)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Documenting a DTD (was Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!)
Date: 8 Sep 1995 14:02:38 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Message-ID: <42pidu$9oh@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org> <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <42lcv7$al3@imagine.convex.com> <19950907T223621Z@naggum.no>

Erik Naggum (erik@naggum.no) wrote:
: [Earl Hood] (in response to Peter Murray-Rust)
: 
: |   In essence, the comments you add to the DTD is documentation, like
: |   comments in a C program.  The problem is you want to make sense of
: |   comments via an sgml parser, so you can generate a "english" document
: |   of the DTD.  It's like asking the C compiler to generate a (readable)
: |   document of source code based upon the comments.
: 
: this is because C lacks support for documentation in its programming
: environments.  if documentation had been an integral part of the language,
: comments would have a different function, and the unfortunate confusion of
[snip]

It might be more useful/easier to use some literate programming tools
to include documentation in source, and give it more meaning. One
could use the noweb tool, for example, which could be found in the
CTAN repositories...

It seems to be better to handle documentation separately rather than
put it as a part of the source language itself...

Jit.

-- 
  _|_|_|_|_|  _|_|_|  _|_|_|_|_|    |  There cannot be a crisis next week,
      _|        _|        _|        |  My schedule is already full.
      _|        _|        _|        |  
  _|  _|        _|        _|        | 		 - Henry Kissinger
  _|_|_|      _|_|_|      _|        |

</message>
<message id="<pepper.4.00D43EFC@falch.no>" date="3019565938" seqno="10701">
From: pepper@falch.no (Steve Pepper)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: list of SGML tools
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 16:18:58 LOCAL
Organization: Falch Infotek AS, Norway
Message-ID: \<pepper.4.00D43EFC@falch.no>
References: \<susan-0509951537300001@semiramis.gordian.com> \<SCHULZE.95Sep7065818@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de>

In article \<SCHULZE.95Sep7065818@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de>
schulze@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de (Bruno Maximilian Schulze) writes:

>Yes, there is an updated version of this list available. I got it some
>days ago from http://www.falch.no, and it's from January 19th, 1995. 

What? How did you do that? The January 19th version hasn't been
available from our site since about January 20th :-)

The list is updated almost daily, both text and HTML versions. The
latest version is dated September 7th.

Steve
--
Steve Pepper, SGML Architect                   pepper@falch.no
Falch Infotek a.s, Postboks 130 Kalbakken, N-0902 Oslo, Norway
http://www.falch.no/  tel://+47 2290 2733  fax://+47 2290 2599
"The Whirlwind Guide":   http://www.falch.no/~pepper/sgmltool/



</message>
<message id="<seitz-0809951329210001@seitz.scp.com>" date="3019573761" seqno="10702">
From: seitz@medscape.com (Bill Seitz)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: journal article DTD?
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 1995 13:29:21 -0500
Organization: Medscape/SCP
Message-ID: \<seitz-0809951329210001@seitz.scp.com>

When I was doing some introductory reading on SGML a couple years ago I
remember coming across a mention of an emerging standard DTD for journal
articles. I believe it had a French name, but I'm not sure. What is this,
is it actually being used, and how can I get a copy (and other background
info)?
</message>
<message id="<MACRAKIS.95Sep8120817@app3.osf.org>" date="3019565297" seqno="10703">
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Epsilons
Date: 08 Sep 1995 16:08:17 GMT
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Message-ID: \<MACRAKIS.95Sep8120817@app3.osf.org>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org>,\<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org> <42nb41$60c@hopper.acm.org>
In-reply-to: davep@ACM.ORG's message of 7 Sep 1995 17:45:36 GMT

In article <42nb41$60c@hopper.acm.org> davep@ACM.ORG writes:

   Thanks for the Greek point of view.

Dave--I did not give the "Greek point of view" and I resent your
identifying it as such.  Although I speak Greek, I have particular
expertise both in mathematics (a B.Sc. from M.I.T. and an S.M. from
Harvard) and in Greek character sets (I gave a paper on Greek
character encoding at the recent international conference on the
History of the Greek Alphabet).  On the other hand, I do not represent
Greece, Greek printers, or Greek standards committees (although I've
been invited to join) or for that matter mathematicians, mathematical
printers, or mathematical standards committees.

In my posting, I analyzed both mathematical documents and
Greek-language documents, and showed that 3-epsilon and C-epsilon are
NOT systematically used one way or another in either case.

   I suspect that mathematicians will tend to want the particular
   glyph printed that they are accustomed to writing on black/
   green/whiteboards.

Did you read my posting?  I showed that mathematical printing, just
like Greek-language printing, does NOT systematically use 3-epsilon or
C-epsilon for one meaning or another.  It seems as likely that it's
the book designer as the author who chooses the fonts.

Moreover, I know of no cases where 3-epsilon and C-epsilon are used as
distinctive variable names or alphabetic characters (as opposed to
set-membership-sign and epsilon, whatever their shape).  And unlike
some other cases (e.g. the partial derivative sign), the graphic form
of the set membership sign is _not_ consistent.  On the other hand, in
the pre-1911 writing system of Tosk Albanian, Latin "e" and Greek
epsilon were used as distinctive characters.

   This, after all, is the reason we now have "blackboard bold"....

I thought it was "typewriter bold", but anyway....  I am aware that
new characters are created in a variety of ways, but this has nothing
to do with whether there are two characters or one, or what their
names should be.

   Sounds like the ACM manual of the 50s was going by the classical
   greek printing style.

There is no one classical Greek printing style.  All I said was that
C-eps "may be used more by classicists".  I suspect that there are
national differences, too, i.e. English, French, and German printers
of classical Greek may use different fonts.

   ...I know that the set membership sign is now a much different
   glyph from the usual "C-epsilon", but mathematicians can't do a
   good job differentiating them on a blackboard.

I don't see the relevance of this.  Mathematicians don't do a very
good job of differentiating italic from roman on a blackboard,
either.  We were talking about _printing_, not blackboards.

   This is why they tend to use the 3-epsilon.  Non-Greek
   mathematicians hand-copying an epsilon from printed text will tend
   to copy the _glyph_, rather than switch to "handwriting font" for
   the _character_--but the result will be read as though in
   "handwriting font", wherein the C-epsilon glyph and set-membership
   glyph are hard to distinguish.

Your point seems to be that the set membership sign and the variable
epsilon in handwriting are distinguished using 3-epsilon and
C-epsilon.  This may be true, but so what?  I reported that _printed_
mathematics _does NOT_ follow this convention consistently.  After
all, some mathematicians distinguish the numeral "1" and the letter
"l" by always using script-l for the letter, even when they use block
letters (and not italics as in printed mathematics) for other letters
of the alphabet.  Some people distinguish numeral "1" from numeral "7"
in handwriting by barring "7"; others distinguish them by not writing
an upstroke on "1"; some don't write an upstroke on "1" but also bar
"7".  So should there be characters naked-1 and barred-7?  Should
French manuscripts be encoded with a character barred-7 and printed
with a glyph barred-7?

   I've misplaced my 10646, but I seem to remember that they use the
   3-epsilon glyph for the ordinary epsilon in the ordinary Greek
   font.

ISO 10646 does not concern fonts, ordinary or otherwise.  The glyphs
in 10646 are simply examples of rendering and have no normative value.

	-s
</message>
<message id="<seitz-0809951352500001@seitz.scp.com>" date="3019575170" seqno="10704">
From: seitz@medscape.com (Bill Seitz)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML, database, HTML tools?
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 1995 13:52:50 -0500
Organization: Medscape/SCP
Message-ID: \<seitz-0809951352500001@seitz.scp.com>

  I'm already running a nice Website. I'm starting to build technical
requirements for the next few years. I can see a greater need for flexible
presentation of chunks of information, rather than just static long
files.  I can thus see a need for a greater use of dynamic document
generation, and a structured content database.

All this starts to smell like SGML, which I have no experience with (but
have done some reading and product sniffing a couple years ago). I see a
need to assemble a whole raft of tools. I'm not interested so much in DTD
tools and editors, as I think they can stand alone pretty much (is this
true?). This mess I think I have to start looking for is some sort of
database (relational or object) server platform that I can load SGML
elements into, and use a programming language (Smalltalk would be nice,
but I'm flexible) to pull these elements together, convert to HTML (based
on a custom style), and pass through a Web server to a user (who then of
course clicks on a link and starts a new cycle).

What products should I be looking at? (Hardware platform is not a big
issue, but total expense of this system has to be "reasonable", given that
we aren't Time Warner....
</message>
<message id="<1995Sep8.171801.2080@relay.acadiau.ca>" date="3019569481" seqno="10705">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: 911288c@dragon.acadiau.ca (EDwin Chung)
Subject: NAME in HTML
Message-ID: <1995Sep8.171801.2080@relay.acadiau.ca>
Sender: news@relay.acadiau.ca
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 17:18:01 GMT

hi,

	Is there any limitation of NAME in HTML,
	for example
	\<IMG> SRC = "12345678.xxx" ??
	Do i need a . for a name ??

edwin
</message>
<message id="<42q43r$ohl@rdsunx.crd.ge.com>" date="3019575867" seqno="10706">
From: Bernie J Scholz \<scholz>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: InterLeaf 5 \<SGML>
Date: 8 Sep 1995 19:04:27 GMT
Organization: GE Corp R\&D Center, Schenectady NY
Message-ID: <42q43r$ohl@rdsunx.crd.ge.com>

Hello,

Is anyone out ther using InterLeaf 5 \<SGML> or has looked at the product
in the past? If so, will you share your thoughts and impressions with me?

Thanks!

-- Bernie
_______________________________________________________________________________

   Bernhard J. (Bernie) Scholz          Engineering Systems Program
                                        Information Technology Lab
   Internet: scholz@crd.ge.com          GE Corporate Research and Development
   Phone   : 518.387.5094               General Electric Company
   FAX     : 518.387.6104
   Postal  : K1-5B28A / GE CRD / PO Box 8 / Schenectady, NY 12301-0008 / USA
_______________________________________________________________________________

</message>
<message id="<42q5iu$1mj@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3019577374" seqno="10707">
From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: NAME in HTML
Date: 8 Sep 1995 19:29:34 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
Message-ID: <42q5iu$1mj@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>
References: <1995Sep8.171801.2080@relay.acadiau.ca>
Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com

EDwin Chung (911288c@dragon.acadiau.ca) wrote:

This is an _SGML_ group. Knowledge of HTML should not be assumed. Some of
us (like me) have lots of experience with SGML, and _no_ experience
with HTML.

Don't get miffed, I'm not suggesting that you don't post this type of
thing here (glad to help actually), but you need to supply some 
particulars of the one particular SGML application (HTML) that you
wish to discuss.

: 	Is there any limitation of NAME in HTML,
: 	for example
: 	\<IMG> SRC = "12345678.xxx" ??

There is a limit (NAMELEN) in the SGML declaration that limits several
forms of 'names'.

I don't know what NAME in HTML is (because you do not supply the
relevant part of the DTD). I'll guess that you are talking
about at attribute with a |declared value| of NAME. Does the DTD have
a statement like:

\<!ATTLIST img
    src NAME #IMPLIED
    ...
>

If that is what you are talking about, then it IS limited to the
value set in NAMELEN. Now you need to go forth and find the SGML
Declaration for HTML and look up NAMELEN to find out what the limit is.


: 	Do i need a . for a name ??

Don't understand this question.

Maybe you meant to say "Can I have a . in a name?" If that is what you
mean then the answer is maybe. It needs to be looked up in the SGML
Declaration for HTML.

The SGML Declaration used when no other is supplied allows:
upper case letters; lower case letters; digits; hyphens; and periods.
(and a NAMELEN of 8)

Or does it mean "Am I _required_ to have a . in a name?"
If that's what you mean, then I don't know as it is application (HTML)
specific.

Application specific questions are more appropriately posted to
an HTML newsgroup (such as comp.infosystems.www.*)

--
  Tad McClellan,      Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy)
                      email: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com
  Just be thankful we don't get all the government we pay for!
</message>
<message id="<42q2hc$fm4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>" date="3019574252" seqno="10708">
From: dgdillaman@aol.com (DGDillaman)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Public Domain CALS Table Viewer
Date: 8 Sep 1995 14:37:32 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <42q2hc$fm4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

We are looking for a Public Domain CALS Table Viewer and/or a product that
will convert CALS Tables to Excel spread sheets.  

Thanks in advance.
Don Dillaman
</message>
<message id="<NEWTNews.810600627.3980.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com>" date="3019589264" seqno="10709">
From: mmorriso@plato.bdt.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: InterLeaf 5 \<SGML>
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 95 15:47:44 PDT
Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA
Message-ID: \<NEWTNews.810600627.3980.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com>
References: <42q43r$ohl@rdsunx.crd.ge.com>


We are using Interleaf 5, but only for conversion purposes
from DECwrite to SGML via Avalanche FastTAG.  From what
little I've seen of it, I would say that it isn't very
convenient to use as it doesn't take the best advantage
of the Windows environment.  I understand that Interleaf
6 is much improved.

</message>
<message id="<19950909T060839Z@naggum.no>" date="3019615719" seqno="10710">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Documenting a DTD (was Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!)
Date: 09 Sep 1995 06:08:39 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950909T060839Z@naggum.no>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org> <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <42lcv7$al3@imagine.convex.com> <19950907T223621Z@naggum.no> <42pidu$9oh@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>

[Arijit Sengupta]

|   It might be more useful/easier to use some literate programming tools
|   to include documentation in source, and give it more meaning.  One
|   could use the noweb tool, for example, which could be found in the CTAN
|   repositories...

this assumes that the only purpose of documentation is to produce a manual.
interactive programming environments (they were invented thirty years ago,
nothing like Bill Gates' bad reinvention of the wheel) need access to
documentation strings.

|   It seems to be better to handle documentation separately rather than
|   put it as a part of the source language itself...

I can see no value in separating source and documentation -- I maintain
that that is the main reason software documentation is so rotten, not the
least because syncronizing source and documentation is a very boring task.
I also don't see how your conclusion follows.  please elucidate.

#\<Erik 3019615719>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<19950909T061105Z@naggum.no>" date="3019615865" seqno="10711">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: NAME in HTML
Date: 09 Sep 1995 06:11:05 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950909T061105Z@naggum.no>
References: <1995Sep8.171801.2080@relay.acadiau.ca> <42q5iu$1mj@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>

[Tad McClellan]

|   This is an _SGML_ group.  Knowledge of HTML should not be assumed.
|   Some of us (like me) have lots of experience with SGML, and _no_
|   experience with HTML.

suddenly, I feel less alone.  thanks.  :)

#\<Erik 3019615865>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<1995Sep9.102631@tetris>" date="3019627591" seqno="10712">
From: rath@igd.fhg.de (Hans Holger Rath)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Literate DTD's
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 1995 10:26:31 MET
Organization: Computer Graphics Center (ZGDV), Darmstadt, Germany
Message-ID: <1995Sep9.102631@tetris>
References: <42mvek$dvg@murphy.servtech.com> <810541160snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: rath@igd.fhg.de (Hans Holger Rath)

In article <810541160snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>, Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Literate DTDs
> 
> I have hacked a simple example of Literate programming for a DTD.  
> ("Knuth's literate programming" ... Donald E Knuth is a revered computer
> scientist whose work includes the TeX and METAFONT systems.  He also 
> proposed that programs should be written to include both code and 
> documentation, and the TeX system is distributed in this way.  Tools
> like tangle act on the code (web2c) to create *.c and *.tex files)

> Below is a simple DTD which can act both as a DTD *and* a document instance
> of another DTD (doc.dtd).  In the latter case, the *documentation* is
> processed and output as ESIS where it could be further formatted
> automatically.  
> ...

The distinction between code (web source) and created program and
formatter code is one of the main acceptance problems of batch
oriented web systems. It is much better to integrate the web system
into an interactive programming environment (editor,
compiler/interpreter, debugger, formatter). This could be done with
interpreted languages like LISP very easy, but also with compiler
oriented languages like C/C++/Modula-2 (see the FAQ of
comp.programming.literate).

Because of this, a literate specification system for a DTD or more
general an SGML application should be integrated in an interactive
SGML authoring/publishing environment. Let this call SWEBS: SGML Web
System.

The application designer specifies the application (DTD = SGML,
formatting = DSSSL, hyper linking = HyTime) in one "interactive
document" based on a SWEBS DTD. The specifications should hide the 
underlying standards and they should be supported by interactive 
graphical user interfaces as much as possible (two examples are: 
SGML content models (Inside\&Out: ftp://ftp.igd.fhg.de/pub/iout), 
context conditions for formatting assignments to elements). SWEBS 
offers various check functions to ensure the integrity of the 
three specification parts (structure, formatting, hyper linking). 

One important part is the close connection to the underlying SGML
system. All the data necessary for a complete SGML application on this
system could be generated automatically from the specified SWEBS
"document". With interfaces to SGML/DSSSL/HyTime SWEBS could
generate/read the specifications in/from the standardized formats.

Another important part is the adoption of the web references that
allows a specification in a human readable order and separation. Lets
quote Knuth here:

  "I think that a complex piece of software is, indeed, best regarded
  as a web that has been delicately pieced together from simple
  materials. We understand a complicated system by understanding its
  simple parts, and by understanding the simple relations between
  those parts and their immediate neighbors."

Therefore two techniques should be supported: (i) all definitions
(element, attribute, format, hyper link) may occur in any order and
(ii) a definition must be referenceable and extendable.

The third important part is the automatic generation of indices and
cross reference lists. These indices/lists should be interactive during
work with the specification tool.

With all these requirements the SWEBS DTD will be much more complex
than the suggested one of Peter Murray-Rust.

I have developed this SWEBS DTD in my graduation thesis and have
described/specified the SWEBS application successful with its own
techniques. Whereby the specification only of the SGML and hyper part
is a ~80 pages document with ~270 elements (the document and DTD are
available to the public at the end of this year; the document is in
German because it is a German graduation, sorry).


Regards,
--Hans Holger Rath


P.S.: 	Some of this ideas will be published in "Computer Standards & 
	Interfaces: Special Issue on SGML" under the title "Making 
	SGML Work".


---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Hans Holger Rath - Computer Graphics Center - Darmstadt - Germany |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|          ZGDV e.V.          | EMail: rath@igd.fhg.de              |
|      Wilhelminenstr. 7      | URL  : http://zgdv.igd.fhg.de/~rath |
|      D-64283 Darmstadt      | Tel. : +49 6151/155-152             |
|           Germany           | Fax  : +49 6151/155-199             |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<42qd3n$ipg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>" date="3019585079" seqno="10713">
From: Mike Torrence \<epsgroup@aol.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: journal article DTD?
Date: 8 Sep 1995 17:37:59 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <42qd3n$ipg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: \<seitz-0809951329210001@seitz.scp.com>

You probably are referring to the Majour DTD. As far as I know, this DTD
is only being used for header file information, it was not developed to
handle complete journal articles. This was the DTD used for the Red Sage
project. This project used header files conforming to the Majour DTD and
matched them up with PostScript files of the article (in case one wanted
to print).

-- 
Mike Torrence
Technical Director
Electronic Publishing Services
Epsgroup@aol.com
</message>
<message id="<42sisu$e15@crl8.crl.com>" date="3019656542" seqno="10714">
From: jenglish@crl.com (Joe English)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and databases - Please Help!
Date: 9 Sep 1995 10:29:02 -0700
Organization: Mentally ill venomous purists with strange emotional drives
Message-ID: <42sisu$e15@crl8.crl.com>
References: <424nfr$e5f@telepath.com> <809989187snz@ursus.demon.co.uk> <428e46$c55@hopper.acm.org> <810339666snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>

Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>(BTW one problem I have is how to *document* my DTDs?  If I use SGML comments
>they are stripped out before, say, getting into dtd2html so that the elements
>appear with no comments.  Is there any analogue to Knuth's literate programming
>where DTDs can contain both 'code' and documentation?  Otherwise it seems that
>the task of keeping the documentation in sync with the DTD is difficult.)

The QWERTZ project uses a form of literate programming,
wherein the DTD is embedded in its own documentation
and extracted by a post-processor.  I've tried this 
approach before and found it unsatisfactory, mostly
because I used 'sgmlsasp' and awk scripts (like QWERTZ
does) to do the extraction, and sgmlsasp is too primitive
to do anything truly useful.

The CApH (Conventions for the Applications of HyTime) group
has developed a DTD for DTDs (DTD4DTDS.DTD); it's essentially
a one-to-one mapping of the document type declaration
syntax productions onto an SGML DTD.  I didn't find this
very useful either; it's difficult to use without a good 
SGML-aware editor.  With 'vi', it's *much* easier to type
and read:

    \<!ELEMENT book - - (p+)>

than

30       \<ElementDeclaration>          \<!-- \<!ELEMENT -->
31         \<ElementType>
32           \<GenericIdentifier>
33             \<Name>book\</Name>       \<!-- book -->
34           \</GenericIdentifier>
35         \</ElementType>
36         \<OmittedTagMinimization>
37           \<StartTagMinimization>
38             \<minus>                 \<!-- - -->
39           \</StartTagMinimization>
40           \<EndTagMinimization>
41             \<minus>                 \<!-- - -->
42           \</EndTagMinimization>
43         \</OmittedTagMinimization>
44         \<ContentModel>
45           \<ModelGroup>              \<!-- ( -->
46             \<ContentToken>
47               \<PrimitiveContentToken>
48                 \<ElementToken>
49                   \<GenericIdentifier>
50                     \<Name>p\</Name>        \<!-- p -->
51                   \</GenericIdentifier>
52                   \<OccurrenceIndicator>
53                     \<plus>                \<!-- + -->
54                   \</OccurrenceIndicator>
55                 \</ElementToken>
56               \</PrimitiveContentToken>
57             \</ContentToken>
58           \</ModelGroup>                   \<!-- ) -->
59         \</ContentModel>
60       \</ElementDeclaration>               \<!-- > -->



Earl Hood has developed a rather neat system called "dtd2html".
See \<URL:http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/dtd2html.doc.html>.
It parses the DTD and an auxilliary "description file", then
creates a web of HTML nodes describing the DTD structure.
The description file contains descriptions of the elements and 
attributes, which are included in the HTML output.
This produces useful hypertext, but it doesn't make a very good
printed reference manual.

The best system I've seen for DTD documentation is probably
IBMIDDoc.  Come to think of it, IBMIDDoc is the best system I've
seen for *any* kind of reference documentation.



--Joe English

  jenglish@crl.com

</message>
<message id="<42spnu$8l5@aadt.sdt.com>" date="3019664111" seqno="10715">
From: ajay_goel@sdt.com (Ajay K Goel)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Looking for a list of SGML books (introductory)
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 1995 19:35:11 GMT
Organization: SABRE Decision Technologies
Message-ID: <42spnu$8l5@aadt.sdt.com>

Does anyone have a list of books which serve as an introduction to
SGML?  Also, if any of this info is available on-line please supply
details on how to retrieve

</message>
<message id="<JARNOT.95Sep9133926@box10.dstar.iddis.com>" date="3019657166" seqno="10716">
From: jarnot@box10.dstar.iddis.com (Kevin J. Jarnot)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Epsilons [WAS: A Book Review on SGML]
Date: 09 Sep 1995 17:39:26 GMT
Organization: IDD Information Services
Message-ID: \<JARNOT.95Sep9133926@box10.dstar.iddis.com>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org> \<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org>
Reply-To: hdavenpo@inso.com
To: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
In-reply-to: macrakis@osf.org's message of 06 Sep 1995 21:28:45 GMT


[ Posting this for Heather Davenport @ INSO Corp.  All followups to
hdavenpo@inso.com. ]


[Stavros Macrakis]
>The answer is: it depends.  Both variants are used for Greek texts.
>3-eps is probably more common in most modern fonts, but C-eps may be
>used more by classicists. 

Thank you for giving the Greek point of view on this!

[Stavros Macrakis]
> It would be ridiculous to define the
>distinction at the entity level, just as it would be ridiculous to
>have different entities for Latin lowercase "a" in its two forms

Actually, no. It is not ridiculous to have different entities for Latin "a"s, 
much less epsilons, because epsilons and "a"s do not only occur in Greek, 
Roman, and mathematical texts. I need these characters for none of the writing 
systems listed above, but rather for pronunciations in dictionaries, 
representing many languages. And, you can have what Unicode calls a "Latin 
small letter a" 0061 and "Latin small letter script a" 0021 coexisting in a 
dictionary's pronunciations, representing two different sounds. I haven't seen 
the same duality with epsilon, but I wouldn't rule it out. That's not to say 
that the pronunciation glyphs in dictionaries are always ideal, but 
nevertheless these cases occur.

Heather Davenport
hdavenpo@inso.com

-- 

---
Kevin J. Jarnot - Senior Software Engineer     | "Facts are stupid things."
IDD Information Services  Waltham, MA          |         - Ronald Reagan
Email: jarnot@iddis.com or jarnot@canisius.edu | rw-rw-rw-: the file protection
Voice: (617)890-7227 x102  Fax: (617)890-7449  |          of the beast
</message>
<message id="<42pshh$9pr@hopper.acm.org>" date="3019568113" seqno="10717">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Epsilons
Date: 8 Sep 1995 16:55:13 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <42pshh$9pr@hopper.acm.org>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org> \<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org>,<19950907T220351Z@naggum.no>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article <19950907T220351Z@naggum.no>,
 Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no> writes:
>[Stavros Macrakis]
>
>|   Why should an entity refer to a particular glyph?!
>
>this is the crux of the problem.  as you point out with the two "variants"
>of lower-case `a', the character-to-glyph mapping is none of SGML's
>business.

There is one time when the glyphs are important:  When one wants to talk
about characters.  Sometimes handling each glyph as a separate graphic,
which must be independently sized, etc., even though the glyphs are available
in the system's fonts, seems to be the wrong way to be a purist.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<42pudt$9pr@hopper.acm.org>" date="3019570045" seqno="10718">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Two Good Articles
Date: 8 Sep 1995 17:27:25 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <42pudt$9pr@hopper.acm.org>
References: <42h14a$lc2@news.Belgium.EU.net> <42cnfv$imd@hopper.acm.org>,<9509070237.AA14361@fly.hiwaay.net>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article <9509070237.AA14361@fly.hiwaay.net>,
 Len Bullard \<cbullard@hiwaay.net> writes:

>[Dave Petersen]

... Peterson

>|   It would appear that the author of this material, judging by the
>|   comment in the DTD which says "The role of SGML document entity is
>|   filled by this DTD, followed by the conventional HTML data stream", was
>|   also confused as to just what a DTD is.  Lets not perpetuate the
>|   error--we need common terminology to communicate.

>While this is true from the SGML point of view and we are on CTS, here, the
>"data stream" description is accurate from the point of view of the libWWW
>architecture documents in which the notation instances are described as
>"data streams" in the block diagrams.  We need common terminology, no
>doubt, but this may not be confusion as much as overlapping information
>ecologies.

I interpret "conventional HTML data stream" to mean the HTML SGML document
instance/element.  What should be followed by the documenet element to get
an "SGML document entity"?  An SGML declaration and prolog/document-type-
declaration.  That what was presented, and incorrectly labelled as a DTD,
by the original poster.  The quote in the comment certainly suggests that
the original writer of the DTD wrote the entire collection of sgml declaration
and prolog and incorrectly thought that _was_ the DTD, and the poster was just
repeating that error.

My complaint has nothing to do with "data stream"; it is that "DTD" was
misused.  And I don't think that "DTD" _has_ any HTML meaning to conflict
with.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<42ptd2$9pr@hopper.acm.org>" date="3019568994" seqno="10719">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Epsilons
Date: 8 Sep 1995 17:09:54 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <42ptd2$9pr@hopper.acm.org>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org>,\<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org> <42nb41$60c@hopper.acm.org>,<19950907T221001Z@naggum.no>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article <19950907T221001Z@naggum.no>,
 Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no> writes:
>[Dave Peterson]
>
>|   I've misplaced my 10646, but I seem to remember that they use the
>|   3-epsilon glyph for the ordinary epsilon in the ordinary Greek font.
>
>this is unfortunately irrelevant.  ISO 10646 is not a glyph collection.

but until we get agreement that c-epsilon and 3-epsilon (for example) are
always alternate glyphs for the same characters, and never different
characters, 10646 at least has a sample glyph published.

BTW, would you prohibit a mathematician from perversely using both epsilons
as distinct symbols?  Suppose, for example, that epsilon was used somewhat
differently in two branches of mathematics or engineering, and someone wound
up writing material that was a fusion from the two branches.  Such a person
might need to discuss both concepts together, would want to use an epsilon
for each, but would not want the same glyph.

I suspect that when set-theory was new and its notation just being created,
epsilon was selected to represent the binary relation "is an Element of".
And I suspect that when the analysts, working with Leibniz's version of
the calculus with its traditional epsilons and deltas, began to use
set theory to more accurately and succinctly describe what they were
doing, they chose just this solution to distinguish between the two
epsilons.  And then, as the epsilon-notation for set theory became very
common, people began to design new glyphs to represent the notation--glyphs
derived from the then-used c-epsilon.  But there probably was a time when the
analysts had to be careful to use two different epsilons, both in handwriting
and in print, because those were the only two glyphs available.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<19950910T222142Z@naggum.no>" date="3019760502" seqno="10720">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Epsilons
Date: 10 Sep 1995 22:21:42 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950910T222142Z@naggum.no>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org>,\<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org> <42nb41$60c@hopper.acm.org>,<19950907T221001Z@naggum.no> <42ptd2$9pr@hopper.acm.org>

[Dave Peterson]

|   BTW, would you prohibit a mathematician from perversely using both
|   epsilons as distinct symbols?

no.  a symbol and a letter of a script are conceptually different concepts.

#\<Erik 3019760502>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<430i0f$clm@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>" date="3019786703" seqno="10721">
From: John Lamp \<John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: journal article DTD?
Date: 11 Sep 1995 05:38:23 GMT
Organization: University of Tasmania, Department of Computer Science
Message-ID: <430i0f$clm@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>
References: \<seitz-0809951329210001@seitz.scp.com>

seitz@medscape.com (Bill Seitz) wrote:
>When I was doing some introductory reading on SGML a couple years ago I
>remember coming across a mention of an emerging standard DTD for journal
>articles. I believe it had a French name, but I'm not sure. What is this,
>is it actually being used, and how can I get a copy (and other background
>info)?

Would that have been the majour DTD? There are links to it and others on
http://lamp.cs.utas.edu.au/net.html

Cheers
John
--
   _--_|\\             John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
  /      \\                 Phone: 002 20 2375 - Fax: 002 20 2913
  \\_.--._/                       email: John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au
        v <--<<          http://lamp.cs.utas.edu.au/jw_lamp.html


</message>
<message id="<430peg$6uh@edf3.der.edf.fr>" date="3019794320" seqno="10722">
From: Jean-Luc Sanson \<jean-luc.sanson@der.edf.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: journal article DTD?
Date: 11 Sep 1995 07:45:20 GMT
Organization: Direction des Etudes et Recherches EDF
Message-ID: <430peg$6uh@edf3.der.edf.fr>
References: \<seitz-0809951329210001@seitz.scp.com>

seitz@medscape.com (Bill Seitz) wrote:
>
> When I was doing some introductory reading on SGML a couple years ago I
> remember coming across a mention of an emerging standard DTD for journal
> articles. I believe it had a French name, but I'm not sure. What is this,
> is it actually being used, and how can I get a copy (and other background
> info)?

 A few years ago some works have been done at AAP (Association of American Publishers)
for serials articles. It was Electronic Manuscript Preparation and Markup.

These works have been moved to ISO and have led to an International Standard 
called ISO 12083:1993
It defined DTD for serials, serials article and books, the DTD include also math and
tab DTD.
Check at ISO site.
There is an Electronic Publishing special interest group (EPSIG )
who exclusively deals with ISO 12083 applications and tutorials
Epsig membership Office
located at GCARI PO Box 25707, Alexandria, VA 22313-5707
phone : 703.519.8184
fax : 703.548.2867

Jean-Luc 

</message>
<message id="<SCHULZE.95Sep11103325@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de>" date="3019797205" seqno="10723">
From: schulze@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de (Bruno Maximilian Schulze)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: list of SGML tools
Date: 11 Sep 1995 08:33:25 GMT
Organization: IMS, University of Stuttgart, Germany
Message-ID: \<SCHULZE.95Sep11103325@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de>
References: \<susan-0509951537300001@semiramis.gordian.com> \<SCHULZE.95Sep7065818@habicht.ims.uni-stuttgart.de> \<pepper.4.00D43EFC@falch.no>
Reply-To: schulze@ims.uni-stuttgart.de
In-reply-to: pepper@falch.no's message of Fri, 8 Sep 1995 16:18:58 LOCAL

>>>>> "Steve" == Steve Pepper \<pepper@falch.no> writes:

    >> Yes, there is an updated version of this list available. I got
    >> it some days ago from http://www.falch.no, and it's from
    >> January 19th, 1995.

    Steve> What? How did you do that? The January 19th version hasn't
    Steve> been available from our site since about January 20th :-)

Oops, you are right. I didn't get it from www.falch.no, but from
ftp.ifi.uio.no/pub/SGML/SGML-Tools. Isn't the stuff there mirrored
from ftp.falch.no as said in the README file? 

    Steve> The list is updated almost daily, both text and HTML
    Steve> versions. The latest version is dated September 7th.

Thank you for the hint. 

Best,

Max





--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruno Maximilian Schulze           | Institute of Natural Language Processing 
Tel:  +49-711-121-1367             | University of Stuttgart
Fax:  +49-711-121-1366             | Azenbergstr. 12
email:schulze@ims.uni-stuttgart.de | D-70174 Stuttgart, Germany
URL: http://www.ims.uni-stuttgart.de/IMS.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<DEqGrJ.FGq@csc.liv.ac.uk>" date="3019798495" seqno="10724">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: steff@csc.liv.ac.uk (Stephanie Nile)
Subject: Simple Cost examples anyone?
Sender: news@csc.liv.ac.uk (News Eater)
Message-ID: \<DEqGrJ.FGq@csc.liv.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 08:54:55 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Liverpool University

Has anyone used Cost - Its the Copenhagen SGML Tool by Klaus Harbo.  Its an
"application programming tool" which uses sgmls.  The authors documentation is
good but I couldnt find any "simple minded" examples to get me started.

I havn't used SGML very much so the problem is compounded!

Any help would be appreciated... 

      __o                               -+-
   _-\\_<,                           ----(*)----
  (*)/'(*)  CBR900RR                   o/ \\o       TOMMAHAWK      


Steff.
</message>
<message id="<Paul_Hermans-1109951552340001@protext.eunet.be>" date="3019819954" seqno="10725">
From: Paul_Hermans@protext.be (Paul Hermans)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: olias
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 15:52:34 +0100
Organization: Pro Text
Message-ID: \<Paul_Hermans-1109951552340001@protext.eunet.be>


Does anyone know what happened to the olias browser of HaL?


Thanks.



Paul Hermans
Pro Text
Paul_Hermans@protext.be
</message>
<message id="<431ksr$2f4@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>" date="3019822427" seqno="10726">
From: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: How widely is ISO 12083 used?
Date: 11 Sep 1995 15:33:47 GMT
Organization: Student Pool, CSD., University of Erlangen
Message-ID: <431ksr$2f4@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
References: \<seitz-0809951329210001@seitz.scp.com> <430peg$6uh@edf3.der.edf.fr>
Reply-To: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de

Jean-Luc  Sanson \<jean-luc.sanson@der.edf.fr> writes:

> A few years ago some works have been done at AAP (Association of American Publishers)
>for serials articles. It was Electronic Manuscript Preparation and Markup.

>These works have been moved to ISO and have led to an International Standard 
>called ISO 12083:1993
>It defined DTD for serials, serials article and books, the DTD include also math and
>tab DTD.

Is ISO 12083 already used anywhere widely? Are there publishers and
journals who accept SGML files that conform exactly to the ISO 12083 DTDs?

I have no idea, were ISO 12083 applications are already used today. Any
insight is welcome.

A related question: in one of the recent Communications of the ACM, there
were several fascinating articles about the electronic publishing plans
of ACM. They mentioned that SGML will be used, however no details. Will
ACM create its own DTDs or is ISO 12083 already sufficient for them?

Markus

---
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -- University of Erlangen,
Internet Mail: \<mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> - Germany
WWW Home: \<http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/user/mskuhn>
</message>
<message id="<810846238snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>" date="3019835038" seqno="10727">
From: Peter Murray-Rust \<Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Simple Cost examples anyone?
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 19:03:58 GMT
Organization: Myorganisation
Message-ID: <810846238snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>
References: \<DEqGrJ.FGq@csc.liv.ac.uk>
Reply-To: Peter@ursus.demon.co.uk

In article \<DEqGrJ.FGq@csc.liv.ac.uk>
           steff@csc.liv.ac.uk "Stephanie Nile" writes:

> Has anyone used Cost - Its the Copenhagen SGML Tool by Klaus Harbo.  Its an
> "application programming tool" which uses sgmls.  The authors documentation is
> good but I couldnt find any "simple minded" examples to get me started.

I have been using this for about 10 days and have found it very useful.
I have corresponded with Klaus who wrote it for a thesis project in a very
short time, but has now moved into the commercial SGML domain.  Klaus has
handed over the mantle to Joe English:
http://trystero.art.com/~joe/
who is shortly about to release a new version.  Joe wrote a very helpful 
mail; he is looking for beta-testers and the timescale is RSN.

The original CoST (capitalisation) required the user to write itcl (that's
an OO version of tcl) to process events.  If you don't know tcl you may still
be able to pick up quite a lot by analogy.  Klaus offered a full package
(including tcl, itcl, sgmls and cost - all of which need compilation.)  The 
final result was an executable with sgmls linked in.

The new version looks substantially different - it uses a query approach and 
maybe you should wait until Joe has a beta for you to test.

"simple minded" is a variable quantity in SGML.  It all depends what you want
to do with the parsed SGML document.  My main interest (so far) has been 
translating it to HTML and LaTeX, but with some data analysis and reformatting 
thrown in.  Klaus' examples are mostly more complex than I have needed (so far)
and many involve two passes through the parse tree.  (Joe has removed the
need for this in CoST-2).  If it's any use my hack is at
http://www.cryst.bbk.ac.uk/glossary/sgml/cml-0.6
where there is a large but simplish script.  (Remember that you will
probably need an itcl module for every different ELEMENT type in your DTD
unless you want to ignore the tags.)

Hope this helps.

P.

-- 
Peter Murray-Rust, domestic net connexion
</message>
<message id="<431vce$55n@gateway.ctg.com>" date="3019833166" seqno="10728">
From: "Tamra D. B. McKee" \<Tamra.McKee@ctg.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML phone support?
Date: 11 Sep 1995 18:32:46 GMT
Organization: Computer Task Group Inc.
Message-ID: <431vce$55n@gateway.ctg.com>

Would anyone know of a company that I could hire for phone support for
the next few weeks (only a few hours each week) to help us through the
final stages of an Interleaf to SGML conversion?  If so, please contact
me at:		e-mail:		Tamra.McKee@ctg.com
		phone:		813-289-4471
		fax:		813-289-6737

Thanks.
</message>
<message id="<4323aj$q26@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>" date="3019837203" seqno="10729">
From: kimber@passage.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HyTime Linking & 'Mainstream' SGML
Date: 11 Sep 1995 19:40:03 GMT
Organization: Passage Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <4323aj$q26@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>
References: \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca>

In article \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca>, cm298@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says...
 
>OmniMark has suggested we preprocess the document, pulling out all entity
>references into a table that their down-translation converter could access. 
>We'll be testing how much of a performance hit our system will take with
>this approach.

There's two problems at work here:

1. The ESIS definition (and therefore tools that only support what ESIS
requires to be returned) only deals with entities that are referenced,
not any entities that are declared. This seems bizarre to me, but then
nobody asked me. The HyTime definition assumes your processor has more
than ESIS-level information available to it.

2. To do HyTime location address resolution with a procedural translation
tool like SGMLS or Omnimark you'll need to be building tables anyway 
(see my HyTest.pl script under /pub/SGML/Demo on ftp.ifi.uio.no). In short,
you have to do one pass to build the tables you'll need to resolve references
(assuming you allow forward references) and a second pass to do the actual
data processing. Assuming that the data processing you're doing is reasonably
substantial, the cost of doing the first pass should be tollerably-small
fraction of the total processing time.

You can also save the results of this first pass as
a cache until the document changes so that you only need to do it the first
time you process a given document.

Note that this two-pass process is the equivalent of first indexing an
SGML document for retrieval and then doing the processing, which is what
tools like Panorama, Explorer, HyMinder, and DynaText do. In other words, 
you can think of the first pass as an indexing step if you prefer. 

-- 
\<Address HyTime=bibloc>
W. Eliot Kimber (kimber@passage.com) Systems Analyst and HyTime Consultant
Passage Systems, Inc., 2608 Pinewood Terr., Austin TX 78757 (512)339-1400
10596 N. Tantau Ave, Cupertino CA, 95014, (408) 366-0300
"SGML or die"
\</Address>

</message>
<message id="<4326q1$rdh@kuikka.inet.fi>" date="3019840769" seqno="10730">
From: pkat@kirstu.wsoy.fi (Pekka Kataja/Tietojarjestelmat/3468)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: NAME in HTML
Date: 11 Sep 1995 20:39:29 GMT
Organization: Telecom Finland News Service
Message-ID: <4326q1$rdh@kuikka.inet.fi>
References: <1995Sep8.171801.2080@relay.acadiau.ca> <42q5iu$1mj@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>

html declaration use NAMELEN 72.
it is somewhat arbitrary; taken from internet line length conventions.
I think most html applications (browsers and servers) dont care about 
NAMELEN, but who needs longer than 72 e.g filenames ?

--pekka * pkat@hki.wsoy.fi
</message>
<message id="<4326tq$rdh@kuikka.inet.fi>" date="3019840890" seqno="10731">
From: pkat@kirstu.wsoy.fi (Pekka Kataja/Tietojarjestelmat/3468)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: olias
Date: 11 Sep 1995 20:41:30 GMT
Organization: Telecom Finland News Service
Message-ID: <4326tq$rdh@kuikka.inet.fi>
References: \<Paul_Hermans-1109951552340001@protext.eunet.be>

Paul Hermans (Paul_Hermans@protext.be) wrote:

: Does anyone know what happened to the olias browser of HaL?
Who needs sgml-browser, we have WWW. Maybe the Olias is dead.

--pekka * pkat@hki.wsoy.fi
</message>
<message id="<43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>" date="3019841077" seqno="10732">
From: fdrake@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Fred L. Drake Jr.)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Looking for ESIS definition.
Date: 11 Sep 1995 16:44:37 -0400
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Message-ID: <43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>
Keywords: SGML, ESIS


  I'm looking for a formal definition of the Element Structure
Information Set.  I've not been able to find it in THE SGML HANDBOOK
or in PRACTICAL SGML (2nd. ed.).  I have found the mention in the
nsgmls man page.
  Is there a standard which defines this, or is this considered
strictly an implementation concern?
  Thanks!


  -Fred

--
http://csgrad.cs.vt.edu/~fdrake/
</message>
<message id="<19950911T213345Z@naggum.no>" date="3019844025" seqno="10733">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: olias
Date: 11 Sep 1995 21:33:45 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950911T213345Z@naggum.no>
References: \<Paul_Hermans-1109951552340001@protext.eunet.be> <4326tq$rdh@kuikka.inet.fi>

[Pekka Kataja]

|   Who needs sgml-browser, we have WWW.

this is the best argument I have ever heard in favor of an SGML browser.


		    beware of the panacea pedlars:
		    just because you wind up naked
		    doesn't make you an emperor.

				-- M. A. Padlipsky


#\<Erik 3019844025>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<19950911T215615Z@naggum.no>" date="3019845375" seqno="10734">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Looking for ESIS definition.
Date: 11 Sep 1995 21:56:15 GMT
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950911T215615Z@naggum.no>
References: <43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>

[Fred L. Drake, Jr.]

|   I'm looking for a formal definition of the Element Structure
|   Information Set.  I've not been able to find it in THE SGML HANDBOOK or
|   in PRACTICAL SGML (2nd. ed.).  I have found the mention in the nsgmls
|   man page.

see The SGML Handbook, pp 588-593.

|   Is there a standard which defines this, or is this considered strictly
|   an implementation concern?

ANSI X3.190-1992: American National Standard for Information Technology --
Text and Office Systems -- Conformance tTesting for Standard Generalized
Markup Language (SGML) Systems.

my view is that ESIS is useful _solely_ as a means to compare two SGML
systems for conformance testing purposes, and that conformance testing is a
largely academic exercise.

#\<Erik 3019845375>
-- 
if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
</message>
<message id="<1995Sep11.141219.2431@bostech.com>" date="3019817539" seqno="10735">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: will@bostech.com (William Saulnier)
Subject: Looking for SGML browser
Message-ID: <1995Sep11.141219.2431@bostech.com>
Sender: Bill Saulnier
Organization: Boston Technology, Wakefield, MA
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 14:12:19 GMT

We are looking for an sgml browser/viewer that will
work in a character-based (vt100) environment with
our DTD. This would be of limited use to us so a
shareware version would be ideal. 

Any suggestions or pointers to web sites would
be appreciated.

thanks,


Bill Saulnier
will@bostech.com
</message>
<message id="<432i37$jlj@ernie.idi.oclc.org>" date="3019852327" seqno="10736">
From: magnus salgo \<MAGNUS@IDS.SE>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and ISO 9000?
Date: 11 Sep 1995 23:52:07 GMT
Organization: Information Dimensions, Inc.
Message-ID: <432i37$jlj@ernie.idi.oclc.org>
References: <42lhpo$41m@data.interserv.net>

censign@interserv.com wrote:
>
> Has anyone been working on an SGML application for ISO 9000 
> certification documents? I was asked today and didn't know 
> the answer. Seems like a natural. 

Check http://www.ids.se/saabpre.html

you also have a downloadable Macromind demo that describes the 
concept. The big thing in this project was not the document managemnt
it was BPR, but they had a 45 years old paper based system which 
they would like to change to better support the organisation.

Reasons moving to SGML:
* documents that should live for the next 50 years
* possible to add intelligent links (read "dynamic" HyTime queries)
* nice user interface using the Panorama like ;-) viewer toolkit
  viewport with support for annotations "in the documents" using WEB:s 

/Magnus
http://www.ids.se/personal/magnus
</message>
<message id="<431osn$kke@hopper.acm.org>" date="3019826519" seqno="10737">
From: murray@ACM.ORG (GERRY MURRAY)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: reply
Date: 11 Sep 1995 16:41:59 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <431osn$kke@hopper.acm.org>
Reply-To: murray@ACM.ORG

In article <431ksr$2f4@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>, mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn) writes:
>Jean-Luc  Sanson \<jean-luc.sanson@der.edf.fr> writes:
>
>> A few years ago some works have been done at AAP (Association of American Publishers)
>>for serials articles. It was Electronic Manuscript Preparation and Markup.
>
>>These works have been moved to ISO and have led to an International Standard 
>>called ISO 12083:1993
>>It defined DTD for serials, serials article and books, the DTD include also math and
>>tab DTD.
>
>Is ISO 12083 already used anywhere widely? Are there publishers and
>journals who accept SGML files that conform exactly to the ISO 12083 DTDs?
>
>I have no idea, were ISO 12083 applications are already used today. Any
>insight is welcome.
>
>A related question: in one of the recent Communications of the ACM, there
>were several fascinating articles about the electronic publishing plans
>of ACM. They mentioned that SGML will be used, however no details. Will
>ACM create its own DTDs or is ISO 12083 already sufficient for them?
>
>Markus
>
>---
>Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -- University of Erlangen,
>Internet Mail: \<mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> - Germany
>WWW Home: \<http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/user/mskuhn>







Hi Markus!

          In developing the DTD suite for ACM we evaluated the
MAJOUR header and derived significant guidance from ISO12083. 
Nevertheless, we still found it necessary to create additional 
fragments for our own (specific) data though we strived continually
to adhere to the standard(s).
         You can certainly check out a beta form of our DTD
via ftp from: acm.org ...in the pub directory!   --- as you know
all DTDs `evolve' and we are continually evolving ours!
         Incidentally, since we're going to be using the Arbortext
Adept series ...we're `using' the ATI math fragment for the math and
CALS for tabular material.

Gerald Murray
Elec. Pub. Info. Mgr.
ACM














</message>
<message id="<432l5h$odt@crl2.crl.com>" date="3019855473" seqno="10738">
From: jenglish@crl.com (Joe English)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HyTime Linking & 'Mainstream' SGML
Date: 11 Sep 1995 17:44:33 -0700
Organization: Mentally ill venomous purists with strange emotional drives
Message-ID: <432l5h$odt@crl2.crl.com>
References: \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca> <4323aj$q26@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>


W. Eliot Kimber \<kimber@passage.com> wrote:
>There's two problems at work here:
>
>1. The ESIS definition (and therefore tools that only support what ESIS
>requires to be returned) only deals with entities that are referenced,
>not any entities that are declared. This seems bizarre to me, but then
>nobody asked me.

I always thought this was so DTDs could reference large
public entity sets without the parser sending a bunch of
(unused) data to the application in a pipelined processing
environment (e.g., sgmls).

> The HyTime definition assumes your processor has more
>than ESIS-level information available to it.

This is what seems bizarre to me.  As an SGML user, I want
to use attributes to specify link endpoints.  As a DTD designer,
I want to use IDREF, ENTITY, and ENTITIES attributes to specify
link endpoints.  Any structure-controlled SGML application *needs*
to have entities named in an attribute value or explicitly 
referenced before it can use them as link endpoints.
So why does HyTime insist that entity names appear as the 
*content* of 'nmloc' form elements?


>\<Address HyTime=bibloc>
> [...]
>"SGML or die"
>\</Address>


I like the new tagline :-)


--Joe English

  jenglish@crl.com
</message>
<message id="<4336na$19t@giga.bga.com>" date="3019873450" seqno="10739">
From: donday@bga.com (Don Day)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Looking for ESIS definition.
Date: 12 Sep 1995 05:44:10 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates
Message-ID: <4336na$19t@giga.bga.com>
References: <43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>
Reply-To: donday@bga.com

In <43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>, fdrake@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Fred L. Drake Jr.) writes:
>
>  I'm looking for a formal definition of the Element Structure
>Information Set.  I've not been able to find it in THE SGML HANDBOOK
>or in PRACTICAL SGML (2nd. ed.).  I have found the mention in the
>nsgmls man page.
>  Is there a standard which defines this, or is this considered
>strictly an implementation concern?
>  Thanks!
>
Look on page 588 of the SGML Handbook (Attachment 1: The ISO 8879 Element
Structure Information Set (ESIS)), then quickly make a marginal note in the
index so that you can find it again.  This info is darned hard to find otherwise.

There is no "standard" representation, as its function is implicit in most SGML
processing systems.  The serial datastream defined in the sgmls man page is
useful in that there are many applications already that can act on that
particular datastream.  You may choose to represent the element structure 
information as objects so that you can retrieve elements randomly without
having to reparse a stream, as long as you have stored the essential ESIS
events and data.

As an "element structure" definition, ESIS does not convey all of
the possible SGML markup information that might be desired for DTD-to-DTD
transformations--it is usually unaware of there having been any comments or
entity boundaries in the source that generated the stream.  This matters little
when your application is generating HTML or a page description.

-- 
Don R. Day	donday@bga.com (hobby mail and WWW access)
		donday@vnet.ibm.com (document systems analyst)

</message>
<message id="<433qbq$hp5@linuxguy.pku.edu.cn>" date="3019893562" seqno="10740">
From: Gao Hong \<gh@748pku.pku.edu.cn>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: list of SGML tools
Date: 12 Sep 1995 11:19:22 GMT
Organization: Institute of Computer Science
Message-ID: <433qbq$hp5@linuxguy.pku.edu.cn>
References: \<susan-0509951537300001@semiramis.gordian.com>
To: susan@gordian.com

You can get from the www address:
http://falch.falch.no/%7Epepper/SGML-Tools/

it is modified by 8.30/95


Good luck


Gao Hong

</message>
<message id="<433qh1$hp5@linuxguy.pku.edu.cn>" date="3019893729" seqno="10741">
From: Gao Hong \<gh@748pku.pku.edu.cn>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: list of SGML tools
Date: 12 Sep 1995 11:22:09 GMT
Organization: Institute of Computer Science
Message-ID: <433qh1$hp5@linuxguy.pku.edu.cn>
References: \<susan-0509951537300001@semiramis.gordian.com>
To: susan@gordian.com

You can get from the www address:
http://falch.falch.no/%7Epepper/SGML-Tools/

it is modified by 8.30/95


Good luck


Gao Hong

</message>
<message id="<199509121016.LAA27117@sun1.cup.cam.ac.uk>" date="3019892922" seqno="10742">
From: Paul Treadaway \<pt100@cup.cam.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Looking for ESIS definition.
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 95 11:08:42 GMT
Organization: Cambridge University Press
Message-ID: <199509121016.LAA27117@sun1.cup.cam.ac.uk>
References: <43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>
Keywords: SGML, ESIS
In-Reply-To: <43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>

In article <43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>, Fred L. Drake Jr. says...
>  I'm looking for a formal definition of the Element Structure
>Information Set.  I've not been able to find it in THE SGML HANDBOOK
>or in PRACTICAL SGML (2nd. ed.).  I have found the mention in the
>nsgmls man page.
>  Is there a standard which defines this, or is this considered
>strictly an implementation concern?

ESIS is not defined explicitly in ISO 8879 (and hence you won't find
a definition in the SGML handbook). However, it is implicit, and there
is in existence a document intended to make explicit the definition,
as a proposed revision of ISO 8879. The document is ISO/IEC 
JTC1/SC18/WG8 N931 (ESIS). Unfortunately, I don't recall the address
for ftp retrieval of this document.

</message>
<message id="<433t81$c4@ikara.bioko.ifi.unizh.ch>" date="3019896513" seqno="10743">
From: merz@ifi.unizh.ch (Dominic A Merz)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Seminar on SGML in Zurich, Switzerland (update)
Date: 12 Sep 1995 14:08:33 +0200
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Zurich
Message-ID: <433t81$c4@ikara.bioko.ifi.unizh.ch>


[Note: This is an updated version of our previously posted announcement -
 containing line breaks...
 We apologize for any inconvenience caused by our first release!]

 
The "Computational Linguistics Group" of the "Department of Computer
Science" at the University of Zurich will offer a seminar about "Using SGML
for Document Markup and Retrieval".

Date: October 11th and 12th, 1995

Place: University of Zurich (Irchel Campus), Switzerland

Language: The seminar will be held in German.


Abstract:

In the seminar we will offer a brief introduction to the philosophy of SGML
and to its language elements. We show how SGML can be employed for
structuring, retrieval, and distribution of documents and offer an
opportunity for hands-on experience with SGML and HTML software tools.

A representative from the airline industry and from a publishing house will
each share their knowledge about SGML in practice. A colleague from the ETH
Zurich will talk about his experiments with SGML databases.

A number of software companies will be present and provide criteria for
selecting the appropriate tools for a given task.

Finally, we shall look at the connection between SGML and HTML and the
future developments of SGML documents in the Internet.


For a registration form send email to:

maurer@ifi.unizh.ch


The following URL provides further information and a detailed program (in
German):

http://www.ifi.unizh.ch/groups/hess/FOSIProgramm.html


If you have any specific questions please do not hesitate to contact:
Dominic A. Merz (merz@ifi.unizh.ch) or 
Martin Volk (volk@ifi.unizh.ch).
</message>
<message id="<DEsqEr.GEE@oasis.icl.co.uk>" date="3019904306" seqno="10744">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: ak@oasis.icl.co.uk (Alfie Kirkpatrick)
Subject: Re: olias
Message-ID: \<DEsqEr.GEE@oasis.icl.co.uk>
Sender: news@oasis.icl.co.uk
Reply-To: ak@oasis.icl.co.uk
Organization: ICL, Bracknell, UK
References: \<Paul_Hermans-1109951552340001@protext.eunet.be> <4326tq$rdh@kuikka.inet.fi>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 14:18:26 GMT

Pekka Kataja/Tietojarjestelmat/3468 (pkat@kirstu.wsoy.fi) wrote:

: Paul Hermans (Paul_Hermans@protext.be) wrote:
: : Does anyone know what happened to the olias browser of HaL?

Frame bought it, but then Adobe bought Frame. I'm not sure what
they intend to do with it (no funny replies please).

: Who needs sgml-browser, we have WWW. Maybe the Olias is dead.
: --pekka * pkat@hki.wsoy.fi

You chose the wrong group for that kind of comment. Prepare to
be roasted alive...

Alfie.
--

+-Professional Publishing Services---------------+
| Alfie Kirkpatrick           ICL                |
| external: +44 1344 472500   Lovelace Road      |
| internal: 7263 2500         Bracknell, Berks   |
| mail: ak@oasis.icl.co.uk    RG12 8SN           |
+------------------------------------------------+
</message>
<message id="<4351ur$9j@mn5.swip.net>" date="3019934107" seqno="10745">
From: hans.erlandsson@mailbox.swipnet.se (Hans Erlandsson)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Converting DCE-files into Word 6.0... ideas anyone?
Date: 12 Sep 1995 22:35:07 GMT
Organization: -
Message-ID: <4351ur$9j@mn5.swip.net>

Does anyone know how to convert IBM DCE-files into Word 6.0 in a quick 
and fancy way... If I compile them, I loose the styles and all other 
formatting... 

/Hans

</message>
<message id="<434v0e$gnm@ulowell.uml.edu>" date="3019931086" seqno="10746">
From: lrutledg@cs.uml.edu (Lloyd Rutledge)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HyTime arch. forms
Date: 12 Sep 1995 21:44:46 GMT
Organization: UMass-Lowell Computer Science
Message-ID: <434v0e$gnm@ulowell.uml.edu>
References: <42pam0$q8n@ruulch.let.ruu.nl>

> 1)
> Suppose the following map is made:
> 
> \<!element ref - o EMPTY -- part of my own DTD -- >
> \<!attlist ref type     NAME #implied
>               target   IDREF #required
>               -- add HyTime identification attributes --
>               HyTime   NAME #fixed 'clink'
>               HyNames  CDATA #fixed 'linkend target'>
> 
> In the example, the Target attribute is #required, as is the Linkend
> attribute of the [clink] form. Now there is no _intrinsic_ reason 
> for requiring such a value. The element may simply be ignored when no
> target value is supplied. Thus

I don't see that you mean here.  Why have a link with only itself as
an anchor?  But anyways ...

> \<!attlist ref type     NAME  #implied
>               target   IDREF #implied >
> 
> would semantically be correct, in the framework of 'my own DTD'. 
> Now this does not align with HyTime [clink] anymore. The HyTime engine 
> would not be able to process \<ref>, due to missing and essential 
> information. Is this correct?

If your ref does not have a target, then effectively it has only
itself as an anchor and is not really a link.  As such, there is not
need for it to be recognized as a HyTime clink.  The HyTime attribute
could also be #implied, and as long as the HyTime attribute is defined
if and only if the target attribute is defined then the HyTime engine
will process the element appropriately.  That is, the element will be
recognized as a clink only when target is defined.

> 2)
> In the previous, close alignment between the structural aspects of the 
> \<ref> and [linkend] is essential. Only a restricted number of HyTime 
> forms will have one or more counterparts as elements in the document type 
> definition. Typical examples are [ilink] and [clink].
> 
> In order to exploit the power of HyTime location addressing it is assumed
> the HyTime forms are instantiated by elements directly drawn from the
> DTD modules defined in iso 10744. It cannot be assumed a DTD actually 
> defines elements that are similar in definition to, for instance,
> the [pathloc] or [treeloc] forms.
> 
> Is this correct?

It sounds like you do not have a correct understanding of
architectural forms.  An element in an SGML document is recognized as
being of a HyTime architectural form if it has the appropriate
attribute assignments.  A form is used in a document only if it has at
least one element recognized as being of that form.  All Hytime
element type forms (ETFs), such as ilink, clink, pathloc, and treeloc,
can be applied to elements ("have counterparts as elements") in a
document in this manner.

Remember that HyTime constructs are recognized in parsed documents,
not in DTDs.  HyTime ISO 10744 does not have "DTD modules".  Each
HyTime module contains a collection of forms that can be applied to
elements.  Of course HyTime documents all have DTDs, and the code in
these DTDs specifies element types in a way that they can (or are
required by the SGML parse to) conform to particular HyTime forms.
So, in a sense, a DTD does "actually defines elements that are similar
in definition to" the definition of the corresponding HyTime forms.

How "similar" these element type definitions have to be to the form
definitions in the standard is determined by the technique for
defining SGML architectures such as HyTime.  As you know, the DTD-like
code in the HyTime is not actually a DTD, but is code defining an
architecture.  When this code is interpreted as an architecture, it
specifies (for the most part) how certain attributes have to be
assigned to an element for it to be recognized as a HyTime element.

Hope this helps,
Lloyd

--
Lloyd Rutledge
Distributed Multimedia Systems Laboratory   
Department of Computer Science            vox: +1 508-934-3554
University of Massachusetts - Lowell      fax: +1 508-452-4298
One University Avenue                     net: lrutledg@cs.uml.edu
Lowell, Massachusetts 01854-2881 USA      web: http://www.uml.edu/~lrutledg/
</message>
<message id="<MACRAKIS.95Sep12173322@app3.osf.org>" date="3019930402" seqno="10747">
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Epsilons [WAS: A Book Review on SGML]
Date: 12 Sep 1995 21:33:22 GMT
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Message-ID: \<MACRAKIS.95Sep12173322@app3.osf.org>
References: <8257@niktow.canisius.edu> \<AC5D23A5966852DD@pendred.demon.co.uk>,\<JARNOT.95Aug25112619@box10.dstar.iddis.com> <424sat$6qc@hopper.acm.org> \<MACRAKIS.95Sep6172845@app3.osf.org> \<JARNOT.95Sep9133926@box10.dstar.iddis.com>
In-reply-to: jarnot@box10.dstar.iddis.com's message of 09 Sep 1995 17:39:26 GMT

I said:

   It would be ridiculous to define the distinction at the entity
   level, just as it would be ridiculous to have different entities
   for Latin lowercase "a" in its two forms

In article \<JARNOT.95Sep9133926@box10.dstar.iddis.com>
   jarnot@box10.dstar.iddis.com (Kevin J. Jarnot) writes:

   Actually, no. It is not ridiculous to have different entities for
   Latin "a"s, much less epsilons.... I need these characters
   for... pronunciations in dictionaries,

OK.  Let me step back a bit.

The character "a" has many reasonable renderings, among them the
script-a rendering used by IPA to denote a low back unrounded vowel.
In most contexts, there is no meaningful distinction between
crook-top-a and round-a/script-a, it is just a glyph variant.

In the context of phonetic renderings (but only in that context),
there _is_ a meaningful distinction.  IPA-script-a must be
distinguished from IPA-standard-a.  This does _not_ imply that the
generic a must be assigned a particular rendering in general.  What it
_does_ imply is that if you have a text that uses IPA-script-a, it
must be visually distinct from IPA-standard-a within the phonetic
transcription.  Even so, the running text (e.g. the definitions in the
dictionary) may well use script-a as its default glyph.  In fact,
there may well be glyph sets/typefaces where you cannot distinguish
between the two (just as most typefaces do not distinguish between
capital Latin A and capital Greek A) -- obviously you will want to
avoid those faces when typesetting phonetics.

You will recall that the discussion started out with trying to
determine what the "correct" shape of epsilon was.  There the
situation is a bit different from the "a" case, actually (although I
was the one who drew the parallel).  In both mathematical and
natural-language contexts, there is no systematic distinction between
3-epsilon and C-epsilon (as I verified by checking a half-dozen math
books and a half-dozen books in classical and modern Greek).  On the
other hand, there _is_ a systematic distinction between the letter
epsilon (used for the sound "e" or for the variable called epsilon)
and the symbol "set membership".  So it is perfectly reasonable to
have an \&eps; entity and a \&setmembership; entity, but not reasonable
to have a \&eps3; and a \&epsC; entity, since there are no contexts
where that distinction is meaningful.

Dave Peterson asks: "would you prohibit a mathematician from
perversely using both epsilons as distinct symbols?"  The answer is
simple: _I_ wouldn't prohibit anyone from doing that.  However, the
mathematician's colleagues might be annoyed, just as they would be if
he or she decided to use an "i" with a little heart instead of the dot
as a distinct symbol.  _All_ characters have variants which can
potentially be used meaningfully.  I see no reason for standards to
support such usages (which you qualify yourself as "perverse") until
the need actually arises.

	-s
</message>
<message id="<4354ke$2g5@morgan.vf.mmc.com>" date="3019936846" seqno="10748">
From: Chris Arena \<ccarena@pims01.psf.ge.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: #CONREF interpretation
Date: 12 Sep 1995 23:20:46 GMT
Organization: Martin Marietta
Message-ID: <4354ke$2g5@morgan.vf.mmc.com>
References: <42l61h$crq@morgan.vf.mmc.com> <19950907T225942Z@naggum.no>
To: erik@naggum.no

Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no> wrote:
>[Chris Arena]
>
>|   Could anyone explain the use of IDREF with #CONREF as in
>|   
>|   \<!ELEMENT text - -  (#PCDATA) >
>|   \<!ATTLIST text
>|             id     ID     #IMPLIED
>|             ref    IDREF  #CONREF
>|             type   CDATA  #REQUIRED
>|   >
>
>this _only_ means that "text" is empty if "ref" is supplied.

If that's all the parser cares about, then required attributes not
being present in the referencING end should be don't-care. We have
two instances where it isn't, however, prompting this question. The 
sgmls parser and Softquad Author/Editor complain in situations 
such as this one about the missing 'required' attribute. 

>
>|   I'm interested in how the required attribute is treated
>|   in the context of a ref, ie:
>|   ..
>|   \<TEXT id="ReferencingText" ref="ReferencedText">
>|   \<!-- no end tag for this TEXT -->
>|   ..
>|   
>|     then, somewhere else ....
>|   
>|   \<TEXT id="ReferencedText" type="data">
>|   asdf asdf asdf asdf ...
>|   \</TEXT>
>|   
>|   How should the parser treat this?
>
>should the parser treat this?  no.
>
>the difficulty in understanding this feature in SGML is that SGML makes no
>pretense to say anything about the semantics of its constructs.  

There are really two levels of semantics here: the semantics of 
the syntactical analysis: (1) what does it mean to express this construction
w/r/t the treatment of attributes, AND (2) what does it mean to process this
data -- what data processing has to take place to support this construct?
The first one I would expect SGML to be clear about, the second is 
application dependent.

>                                                               one way to
>use this feature is of course to let the application pick up the data from
>the referenced element, but the possibilities are so many that it would be
>restricting if SGML specified any of them.  of course, it may also be
>restricting people's creativity to provide no foundation to start from.

The interpretation which I held was that required attributes would be 
treated as non-required attributes are treated -- that is, they could 
be in the target of the reference or in the source of the reference 
and be in force; the source of the reference would override the 
target. But for a required attribute, a target could only be 
correct if it included the required attribute, so that for a 
source (or referencING) tag, the required attributes would 
become optional.

>whether the former restriction is worse than the latter.  I tend to think
>that examples are useful as a base for intuition and creativity, and if
>they are used as "templates" by copy-cats and restrict people's ability or
>willingness to play, they are working against their original purpose and
>should be abandoned in favor of teaching fundamentals.

Fundamentals such as clarity within a specification are what I would like
to see emphasized. My interpretation of the semantics is not wrong
(as in contradicted explicitly by the SGML spec), but apparently its not
right either. I feel that my interpretation is broader than that expressed
in the sgmls and SoftQuad A/E implementations, more useful, and perhaps
more powerful than the narrow interpretation.

>                                                       good examples are
>so hard to make that more people should consider whether they are useful,
>even though the current trend in documentation is away from understanding
>towards immediate use.
>
>#\<Erik 3019503582>

Good examples are hard to make but are needed to illustrate the concepts.
If an example demonstrating a concept can't be constructed because no one
can agree that its right, doesn't that say something about the concept?


Chris Arena
Lockheed Martin Defense Systems
ccarena@pims01.psf.ge.com


</message>
<message id="<435gch$q5g@hopper.acm.org>" date="3019948881" seqno="10749">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: #CONREF interpretation
Date: 13 Sep 1995 02:41:21 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <435gch$q5g@hopper.acm.org>
References: <42l61h$crq@morgan.vf.mmc.com> <19950907T225942Z@naggum.no>,<4354ke$2g5@morgan.vf.mmc.com>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article <4354ke$2g5@morgan.vf.mmc.com>,
 Chris Arena \<ccarena@pims01.psf.ge.com> writes:
>Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no> wrote:
>>[Chris Arena]
>>
>>|   Could anyone explain the use of IDREF with #CONREF as in
>>|   
>>|   \<!ELEMENT text - -  (#PCDATA) >
>>|   \<!ATTLIST text
>>|             id     ID     #IMPLIED
>>|             ref    IDREF  #CONREF
>>|             type   CDATA  #REQUIRED
>>|   >
>>
>>this _only_ means that "text" is empty if "ref" is supplied.
>
>If that's all the parser cares about, then required attributes not
>being present in the referencING end should be don't-care.

1.  Erik was only explaining "CONREF", which is what you seemed to be
asking about.

2.  A REQUIRED attribute ("type") must always be specified.  That's
what "REQUIRED" means in an attribute definition.  If you want it
"don't-care", you have to specify something else; probably IMPLIED.
You may think it "should be", but that's not how SGML defines it.

3.  What happens at a referencing element can't have any impact (as
far as SGML is concerned, not necessarily the application) on what
happens at the referenced element.

4.  Many SGML parsers don't report "links" to the application.  They
only pass on the attribute values, the application has to match the
names to establish the links.  The only obligation of the parser is
to effectively create a list of ID values and a list of IDREF values
and report an error if the first list is not a superset of the second.
So the parser may not even internally ever associate the referencing
and referenced elements.

Hope this helps.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<435kmn$osq@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>" date="3019953303" seqno="10750">
From: John Lamp \<John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: How widely is ISO 12083 used?
Date: 13 Sep 1995 03:55:03 GMT
Organization: University of Tasmania, Department of Computer Science
Message-ID: <435kmn$osq@franklin.cc.utas.edu.au>
References: \<seitz-0809951329210001@seitz.scp.com> <430peg$6uh@edf3.der.edf.fr> <431ksr$2f4@rznews.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>

mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn) wrote:

>A related question: in one of the recent Communications of the ACM, there
>were several fascinating articles about the electronic publishing plans
>of ACM. They mentioned that SGML will be used, however no details. Will
>ACM create its own DTDs or is ISO 12083 already sufficient for them?

The ACM Electronic Publishing Plan can be accessed at:
http://acm.org/pubs/epub_plan.html

Cheers
John
--
   _--_|\\             John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
  /      \\                 Phone: 002 20 2375 - Fax: 002 20 2913
  \\_.--._/                       email: John.Lamp@cs.utas.edu.au
        v <--<<          http://lamp.cs.utas.edu.au/jw_lamp.html


</message>
<message id="<4369hg$hi7@kuikka.inet.fi>" date="3019974640" seqno="10751">
From: pkat@kirstu.wsoy.fi (Pekka Kataja/Tietojarjestelmat/3468)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: olias
Date: 13 Sep 1995 09:50:40 GMT
Organization: Telecom Finland News Service
Message-ID: <4369hg$hi7@kuikka.inet.fi>
References: \<Paul_Hermans-1109951552340001@protext.eunet.be> <4326tq$rdh@kuikka.inet.fi> \<DEsqEr.GEE@oasis.icl.co.uk>


: You chose the wrong group for that kind of comment. Prepare to
: be roasted alive...
Yes I do ;)

--pekka 
</message>
<message id="<neugeb.810988937@ceres>" date="3019977737" seqno="10752">
From: neugeb@ceres.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de (Peter Neugebauer)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Inside\&Out
Date: 13 Sep 95 10:42:17 GMT
Organization: TAT (Theoretical Astrophysics Tuebingen), U. of Tuebingen, FRG
Message-ID: \<neugeb.810988937@ceres>
Keywords: Document analysis

Hi folks,

the 'Whirlwind Guide' lists a PD tool for document analysis named 
		Inside & Out
Has anyone heard of this and can tell me where to get it? I tried
ftp.ifi.uio.no but did not found anything with this name (maybe it
is actually there but with another name).

			Thanks for your help
				Peter
-- 
jaja
</message>
<message id="<436i7v$9ec$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com>" date="3019983551" seqno="10753">
From: Paul Hayslett <72537.342@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: mass market (was SGML and databases
Date: 13 Sep 1995 12:19:11 GMT
Organization: Cow Bay Software
Message-ID: <436i7v$9ec$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com>
References: <19950906T231254Z@naggum.no>

I must say I agree with Erik. (My apologies for misspelling your 
name in earlier post). Witness the number of companies offering 
supported versions of Linux. It does not seem to have hurt Linux 
much and it lets small companies use UN*X without a guru. Very 
inexpensive, supported, Web tools are now proliferating, but they 
do not prevent one from using the free stuff.

Of course, if James Clark started such a venture personally, it 
might offer him some return on all the work he has donated to the 
SGML community over the years. He certainly deserves it. He could 
still release the software itself for free, as he does now, and so 
serve those who have the expertise to use it.

The original issue was SGML penetration into the mass market (from 
its traditional homes in academia and DoD procurement). Packaging 
and pricing structures must match the market you wish to reach -- 
the market will not adapt to fit the packages offered. The mass 
market wants easy-to-use tools, with docs and tutorials, some 
level of support, and a reasonable price. This is not a value 
judgement, just a simple business fact.

-- 
Paul Hayslett
Cow Bay Software
72537.342@compuserve.com
203-481-5129
</message>
<message id="<436moh$4vm@news.us.net>" date="3019988177" seqno="10754">
From: ansible@us.net (ansible@us.net)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Need Help on Doing Online Help in OS/2 PM
Date: 13 Sep 1995 13:36:17 GMT
Organization: Expert Web Doodler
Message-ID: <436moh$4vm@news.us.net>

Can someone please direct me to some books or 
online resources regarding how to create online help
in OS/2 PM?  I have a program to convert my WinHelp 
source RTF file to an INF file, but I can't find 
any info on how to call a specific help topic from a 
C program -- to display context sensitive help from a help 
button or help menu.

Thanks
Arlene Darrow
ansible@us.net
arlened@xdb.com

-- 
**************************************************************
  The Internet is the Perfect Vehicle for Telecommuting
       
  Contact ansible@us.net for Web Page Design/HTML Tagging
  View sample web pages at http://www.cyberenet.net/~ansible/
**************************************************************

</message>
<message id="<199509131337.JAA28499@village.doctools.com>" date="3019988312" seqno="10755">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Approved: erik@naggum.no
Message-ID: <199509131337.JAA28499@village.doctools.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:38:32 -0400
From: "Eve L. Maler" \<elm@arbortext.com>
Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: DocBook Version 2.3 released 11 September 1995

SUMMARY: DocBook Version 2.3, a modular and parameterized version 
of the previous release of the DTD, has been released and is now 
available from the Davenport Group's Web site (accessible through
http://www.ora.com/davenport/README or 
ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/README).

                        *               *               *

DocBook has recently undergone a process to break it into modular files
and to parameterize it for easy customizing.  Version 2.3 is the result 
of this effort.

In brief, the problem that the new DTD structure addresses is that many
organizations use DocBook only in modified form, and the modifications 
had to be made in the original DTD file.  Thus, it has been difficult for 
these organizations to take advantage of new DocBook versions, to track 
their modifications to the DTD, and to share different sets of 
modifications with interchange partners.

DocBook V2.3 uses parameter entities and separate modular files in a way 
that allows DTD maintainers to store most DocBook modifications separately
from the original DTD.  These modifications form a "customization layer" 
that can easily be applied to successive DocBook revisions.

The purpose of this V2.3 release is only to make these modification 
methods available to organizations that customize DocBook.  No other 
significant changes have been made to the element and attribute markup 
specifications; our testing has confirmed that documents conforming to 
DocBook V2.2.1 will conform to V2.3 as well.

V2.3 is accompanied by a new piece of documentation, the Maintainer's
Guide.  This guide explains to DTD readers and maintainers how to read 
and understand the DTD and related files and how to take advantage of 
the new customization methods.  The Maintainer's Guide is available in 
SGML form (using DocBook, of course) and in PostScript formatted form. 
The User's Guide is unchanged for this version.

Another minor revision of DocBook is in the works.  Version 2.4 will
contain many backwards-compatible enhancements (for example, expanded 
content models) requested by DocBook users in the past few months and 
at the recent Davenport meeting hosted by SCO.  We anticipate that *all* 
DocBook users will at least want to examine V2.4 for the usefulness of 
its new features in their own environments.  V2.4 is planned to be
delivered in early October, along with revised and improved user
documentation.

You can download the files related to DocBook V2.3 from the following 
locations:

o ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/docbook/docbk23.tar.Z
  (requires tar and uncompress)

o ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/docbook/docbk23.zip
  (requires pkunzip)

These compressed files include all the DocBook DTD modules, related 
SGML application files, and the source and PostScript files for the 
Maintainer's Guide.  You can download the individual files that make 
up the distribution, too; for file names and descriptions, please see
the "docbook" directory's README file:
ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/docbook/README.

We encourage DocBook users and other parties interested in SGML computer 
documentation to join the Davenport Group's discussion mailing list by
sending mail to listown@online.ora.com with a message body of 
"subscribe davenport Your Name of Your Company".

Comments on DocBook are always welcome.  You can send comments and 
questions to the mailing list (davenport@online.ora.com), or directly 
to the maintainers of DocBook, Terry Allen (terry@ora.com) and Eve Maler
(elm@arbortext.com).  Thank you.

-- 
        Eve Maler
        elm@arbortext.com
        +1 617 270 5750
</message>
<message id="<436qp0$dv5@toads.pgh.pa.us>" date="3019992287" seqno="10756">
From: tore@lis.pitt.edu (Tore Joergensen)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: CACM Aug 95: mention of SGML and HyTime?!
Date: 13 Sep 1995 14:44:47 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <436qp0$dv5@toads.pgh.pa.us>
References: <42jdi6$oc@elna.ethz.ch>

Wiedmer Hans Ulrich (wiedmer@iwf.bepr.ethz.ch) wrote:
: On the other hand, in the ACM forum there is a debate on the 
: usability of ISO standards in the IT field.

: Maybe some knowledgeable and recognized person could reply to all
: this, to improve the awareness of existing standards and solutions.

: BTW: some material to this issue is available online:
: http://www.acm.org/siglink/

We are going to make a web-page with interesting links about standards,
(the more than complete guide to ... :-) ) in a course called
"Information Technology Standards" at Univ. of Pittsburgh (teached
by Michael B. Spring). Unless one of the students want to expand
this to his/hers main project, I don't expect it to be more than
complete. Anyway, I just wanted to mention it. I'll write again
when the project is done :-)
--
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
| Tore B. Joergensen      | e-mail : tore@lis.pitt.edu                |
| Centre Court Villa      | web    : http://www.pitt.edu/~tojst1      |
| 5535 Centre Avenue # 6  |                                           |
| Pgh, PA 15232, USA      | Norwegian MSIS-student at Univ. of Pgh.   |
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
</message>
<message id="<4371p5$t94@ruby.ora.com>" date="3019999461" seqno="10757">
From: terry@ruby.ora.com (Terry Allen)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Docbook Biblio*, Artheader
Date: 13 Sep 1995 12:44:21 -0400
Organization: O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Message-ID: <4371p5$t94@ruby.ora.com>

Actual use has shown that the Bibliography and Biblioentry content
models in the Docbook DTD are difficult to use, and probably unduly
prescriptive.  We're thinking about revising them.

Also, the Artheader construct (derived from Majour) appears to 
suffer from the same problem---but I don't know of anyone who's
used it.

If you have used and are relying on Bibliography and Biblioentry,
or if you've used Artheader at all, please send me email telling
me what about these elements works or doesn't for you; if you've
used Artheader, how would you feel if we excised it completely?

Thanks!

(for the Docbook Design Team)

Terry Allen  (terry@songline.com)       Songline Studios
Online Books Editor                     101 Morris St.
affiliated with O'Reilly & Asso, Inc.   Sebastopol, Calif., 95472
A Davenport Group sponsor.  For information on the Davenport 
  Group see ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/README.html
        or  http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html
Current HTML 2.0 spec:  
  ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-html-spec-05.txt

"I thought many of the saucer photos were falsifications, using
the techniques known in the lingo as `multimedia.'" --"Sightings"

-- 
Terry Allen  (terry@ora.com)   O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
Editor, Digital Media Group    101 Morris St.
                               Sebastopol, Calif., 95472

A Davenport Group sponsor.  For information on the Davenport
  Group see ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/README.html
        or  http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html

Current HTML 2.0 spec:  
  ftp://ds.internic.net/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-html-spec-05.txt

</message>
<message id="<1995Sep13.181302.16233@nosc.mil>" date="3020004782" seqno="10758">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: sfim@nosc.mil (Sandy Fimiano)
Subject: job opportunity at PRC, Philly
Message-ID: <1995Sep13.181302.16233@nosc.mil>
Sender: news@nosc.mil
Organization: NCCOSC RDT\&E Division, San Diego, CA
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 18:13:02 GMT

Summary: 

PRC is a leader in technology-based information systems and services.  We
seek a DOCUMENTATION SPECIALIST	/ TECHNICAL WRITER to work with online
and hardcopy documentation.  The ideal candidate will have a degree in
technical writing, strong communications skills, and be computer literate.
Experience with the following is a plus:  Standard Generalized Markup 
Language (SGML), Hypertext Markup Language (HTML), Word 6.0, UNIX, ArborText,
DynaText, FasTag, WWW (Netscape/Mosaic)  and HTML Conversion Software.
,
Followup-To: 
Ms. Sandy Fimiano, Human Resources
PRC Inc.
One Bala Plaza, Suite 324
Bala Cynwyd, PA   19004
(610)668-1500   FAX  (610)668-1135  email:  fimiano_sandy@prc.com or             (610)252-0758   email:  sfim@philly.nosc.mil

Followup-To: 
Distribution: usa
Organization:
PRC provides systems integration, lifecycle engineering, and management                 solutions
by applying technology and innovation in partnership with our customers and 
suppliers.  PRC employs 7,000 and is a subsidiary of Black and Decker
 
Keywords:

SGML, HTML, UNIX, DynaText, FasTag, World Wide Web.
 
Cc: 


</message>
<message id="<437ao7$evd@nrcnet0.nrc.ca>" date="3020008647" seqno="10759">
From: Russell Thomas \<Russ.Thomas@nrc.ca>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and math encoding
Date: 13 Sep 1995 19:17:27 GMT
Organization: National Research Council Canada
Message-ID: <437ao7$evd@nrcnet0.nrc.ca>
References: <42koghINN8ja@afshub.boulder.ibm.com>
To: wohler@vnet.ibm.com

wohler@vnet.ibm.com (Wayne L. Wohler) wrote:
>I have the task of adding a non-proprietary mathematics language to
>IBM's DTD for technical documentation, IBMIDDoc.  Is there a consensus
>on the 'right' way to do this?  The alternatives that come to mind are:
>
>     ISO Technical Report 9573
>     ISO Standard 12083 (presumably not the AAP fragment from which it

Wayne,

For your information, the TR 9573 report is to be recommended for withdrawl
as it no longer represents the use of SGML at ISO. The replacement DTD 
(probably issued as a ISO Guide Document) will use the Math Fragment out
of ISO 12083.

So your two choices of preference is norrowed down to one!  There are though
other attempts to provide a math DTD fragment but most attention is now
being focused on the use of the one out of 12083.

Russ.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr J Russell Thomas,                      Phone: (613) 993 - 0817
National Research Council of Canada,        Fax: (613) 952 - 7673
I.R.C. - ILB,                             email: russ@contact.irc.nrc.ca   
Building M-20,                                 : russ.thomas@nrc.ca
Montreal Road,
Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0R6 
Canada.


</message>
<message id="<438ffn$ob4@toads.pgh.pa.us>" date="3020046263" seqno="10760">
From: tore@lis.pitt.edu (Tore Joergensen)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Need Help on Doing Online Help in OS/2 PM
Date: 14 Sep 1995 05:44:23 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <438ffn$ob4@toads.pgh.pa.us>
References: <436moh$4vm@news.us.net>

ansible@us.net (ansible@us.net) wrote:
: Can someone please direct me to some books or 
: online resources regarding how to create online help
: in OS/2 PM?  I have a program to convert my WinHelp 
: source RTF file to an INF file, but I can't find 
: any info on how to call a specific help topic from a 
: C program -- to display context sensitive help from a help 
: button or help menu.

You don't want an INF-file. You want a HLP-file. To make a HLP-file,
you need an IPF-file, which you compile with an IPF-compiler. This
is included in most comercial c-compilers. I'm sorry I can't help
you anymore than that. Try to send the question to an os2.programming
news-group. They can probably help you.
--
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
| Tore B. Joergensen      | e-mail : tore@lis.pitt.edu                |
| Centre Court Villa      | web    : http://www.pitt.edu/~tojst1      |
| 5535 Centre Avenue # 6  |                                           |
| Pgh, PA 15232, USA      | Norwegian MSIS-student at Univ. of Pgh.   |
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
</message>
<message id="<438n7g$hjl@news.xs4all.nl>" date="3020054192" seqno="10761">
From: esdc@xs1.xs4all.nl (esdc)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: convert postscript or eps files
Date: 14 Sep 1995 07:56:32 GMT
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Message-ID: <438n7g$hjl@news.xs4all.nl>


</message>
<message id="<1995Sep14.100210@tetris>" date="3020058130" seqno="10762">
From: rath@igd.fhg.de (Hans Holger Rath)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Inside\&Out
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:02:10 MET
Organization: Computer Graphics Center (ZGDV), D-64283 Darmstadt, Germany
Message-ID: <1995Sep14.100210@tetris>
References: \<neugeb.810988937@ceres>
Reply-To: rath@igd.fhg.de (Hans Holger Rath)
Keywords: Document analysis
To: neugeb@ceres.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de (Peter Neugebauer)

In article \<neugeb.810988937@ceres>, neugeb@ceres.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de 
(Peter Neugebauer) writes:
> Hi folks,
> 
> the 'Whirlwind Guide' lists a PD tool for document analysis named 
> 		Inside & Out
> Has anyone heard of this and can tell me where to get it? I tried
> ftp.ifi.uio.no but did not found anything with this name (maybe it
> is actually there but with another name).

It seemed that Inside\&Out was not downloaded to ftp.ifi.uio.no from 
the our original FTP server

	ftp://ftp.igd.fhg.de/pub/iout/

until now.

=> Erik Naggum: Perhaps you may be so pleasant and mirror our directory
at ftp.ifi.uio.no. Thank you very much!


Regards,
--Holger


---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Hans Holger Rath - Computer Graphics Center - Darmstadt - Germany |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
|          ZGDV e.V.          | EMail: rath@igd.fhg.de              |
|      Wilhelminenstr. 7      | URL  : http://zgdv.igd.fhg.de/~rath |
|      D-64283 Darmstadt      | Tel. : +49 6151/155-152             |
|           Germany           | Fax  : +49 6151/155-199             |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<438vuo$q0i@siemens.co.at>" date="3020063128" seqno="10763">
From: rehling@mx2309.gud.siemens.co.at (Konrad Rehling)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: olias
Date: 14 Sep 1995 10:25:28 GMT
Organization: Siemens AG Austria
Message-ID: <438vuo$q0i@siemens.co.at>
References: \<Paul_Hermans-1109951552340001@protext.eunet.be>

Paul Hermans (Paul_Hermans@protext.be) wrote:

: Does anyone know what happened to the olias browser of HaL?


: Thanks.



: Paul Hermans
: Pro Text
: Paul_Hermans@protext.be

Have a look at HaL's WWW server (http://www.hal.com/) at

http://www.hal.com/products/sw/olias/index.html


Kind regards

Konrad
--
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\///////////////////////////////////
 \\ Konrad Rehling at          Excu/\\se            ta gnilheR darnoK / 
  \\ SIEMENS AUSTRIA CORP.       m/e \\        .PROC AIRTSUA SNEMEIS /
   \\ 1100 Vienna, Austria       / whi\\le     airtsuA ,anneiV 0011 /   
   /                            \\I ki/ss                          \\
  / e-mail:                    th\\e /sky                   :liam-e \\
 /rehling@ws2330.gud.siemens.co.at\\/ta.oc.snemeis.dug.0332sw@gnilher\\
///////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
</message>
<message id="<439bd3$d9d@data.interserv.net>" date="3020074851" seqno="10764">
From: censign@interserv.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Program for Sept. 19th SGML seminar in NYC
Date: 14 Sep 1995 13:40:51 GMT
Organization: Logical Design Solutions, Inc.
Message-ID: <439bd3$d9d@data.interserv.net>

Here is the preliminary program for the all-day SGML/HTML seminar being
held Tuesday, September 19th at the McGraw-Hill building in New York
City. Speakers include Chuck Myers of Frame Technology, Mark Walter of
Seybold Publications, David Harkness of Novell and Jerry Michalski of
Ester Dyson's "Release 1.0."

The seminar, "SGML: Open for Business," is cohosted by the SGML Forum of
New York (the tri-state area SGML users group) and SGML Open (the SGML
industry consortium). I have attached information on registering to the
end of this message.

Best regards,

/chet

Chet Ensign
Logical Design Solutions
908-771-9221                 censign@lds.com


\<!-- SGML: Open for Business Seminar Program -->

* Program *
-----------

 8:30 am                Registration and continental breakfast

 9:15 am -  9:25 am     Welcome and Introductions
                        Cesare Del Vaglio, President, SGML Forum of NY

 9:25 am - 10:00 am     Plenary Address
                        Mary Laplante, Director, SGML Open

10:00 am - 10:15 am     Break

Business Track
--------------
10:15 am - 10:45 am     Assessing Business Needs for SGML
                        Robert J. Glushko, Passage Systems

10:45 am - 11:30 am     User Panel: SGML in Business
                        Moderator:  Chet Ensign, Logical Design
Solutions
                        Panelists:  Mark Walters, Seybold Publications
                                    Dale Waldt, RIA
                                    Cyndie Cooper, C.C. Data Systems
                                    Jim Lytle, ICS

11:30 am - 12:15 pm     Practical Strategies for Selling the Concept
                        Martin Hensel, Martin Hensel Corporation

Technical Track
---------------
10:15 am - 10:45 am     Planning a Conversion Strategy
                        Mark Gross, Data Conversion Laboratory

10:45 am - 11:30 am     Building a Data Repository: SGML and Databases
                        Michael Maziarka, Xyvision, Inc.

11:30 am - 12:15 pm     Vendor Panel:  Approaches to SGML Authoring
                        Moderator:  Mary Laplante, SGML Open
                        Panelists:  Chuck Myers, Frame Technology 
                                    Mark Ketzler, ArborText
                                    David Harkness, Novell
                                    Joe Davidson, SoftQuad

12:15 pm -  1:30 pm     Lunch, Vendor expo opens

 1:30 pm -  2:30 pm     SGML and Internet Publishing: Business and
Technical
                        Perspectives
                        Jerry Michalski, Release 1.0
                        Kent Summers, Electronic Book Technologies, Inc.
                        Others, TBA

 2:30 pm -  5:00 pm     Vendor Info-mercials 
                        (10 minute presentations by vendors
                        for demoing products, announcements, etc.)

 5:00 pm -  6:00 pm     Open Mike Session: Attendees Talk Back

 6:00 pm                Expo and program close



Time and Place =====

September 19, 1995

8:30 am - 5:00 pm

McGraw-Hill Building
1221 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York
2nd Floor conference center (take escalators to right of main doors)


How to Register =====

Registration for "Open for Business: The SGML Standard" is limited, so
reserve your space early.

The seminar fee is $99.00 U.S. Members of the SGML Forum of New York or
SGML Open qualify for a discounted rate of $35.00.

Join the SGML Forum of New York for the annual membership fee of $40.00
and be eligible for the discounted admission to the seminar! For
information on Forum membership, contact Chet Ensign at +908-771-9221,
email: censign@lds.com.

To register for "Open for Business: The SGML Standard" contact SGML Open
at +412-264-4258, email: info@sgmlopen.org. Fax this reply card to +412-
264-6598, or mail it with a check made payable to:

    SGML Open
    910 Beaver Grade Road, #3008
    Coraopolis, PA 15108


__ Enclosed is my check for ________________________________

__ Invoice my company. P.O.#________________________________


Name _______________________________________________________

Title ______________________________________________________

Company ____________________________________________________

Address ____________________________________________________

City, State, Zip ___________________________________________

Phone ______________________________________________________

Fax ________________________________________________________


Others from my company who plan to attend:

Name _______________________________________________________

Name _______________________________________________________



The Sponsors
============

SGML Open is a non-profit international consortium of providers of
products and services, dedicated to accelerating the further adoption,
application and implementation of SGML.

The SGML Forum of New York is a non-profit organization devoted to the
exchange of ideas and information about SGML. Members represent a wide
variety of industries including publishing, financial services,
insurance, securities, telecommunications, defense and pharmaceuticals.


</>

</message>
<message id="<439clt$1bi@news.xs4all.nl>" date="3020076157" seqno="10765">
From: esdc@xs1.xs4all.nl (esdc)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: conversion postsscript -or EPS- files to CGMs
Date: 14 Sep 1995 14:02:37 GMT
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Message-ID: <439clt$1bi@news.xs4all.nl>
Keywords: sgml cga conversion postscript eps ata 2100


Question;

Who has knowladge, experience or references about a conversiontool
that can convert postscript -or EPS- files into ATA 2100 class 3 CGMs?

Applicationbuilders (UNIX,Solaris) are ofcourse welcome to face the
challenge building such a tool at a reasonable price.

The CGM will be used in a SGML document
The ATA specification will be send to you after we have made contact.

Practice makes perfect!!


please send e-mail to Loek Blom esdc@xs4all.nl


</message>
<message id="<439jcp$5qp@gateway.ctg.com>" date="3020083033" seqno="10766">
From: "Tamra D. B. McKee" \<Tamra.McKee@ctg.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Opportunity-SGML conversion
Date: 14 Sep 1995 15:57:13 GMT
Organization: Computer Task Group Inc.
Message-ID: <439jcp$5qp@gateway.ctg.com>

CTG's Tampa, FL office has an opportunity for a SGML specialist.  This 
candidate will perform conversions of legacy Interleaf documents to
SGML;  develop and support SGML authoring environment;  develop docum-
entation and training material concerning the conversion and authoring
environment.  

For more information about our company, please see CTG's company profile
on OCC.

To respond, please:
	e-mail:		Tamra.McKee@ctg.com
	mail:		7650 Courtney Campbell Causeway
			Suite 1220
			Tampa, FL  33607
	fax:		813-289-6737
	

</message>
<message id="<199509142122.RAA01536@village.doctools.com>" date="3020102620" seqno="10767">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Message-ID: <199509142122.RAA01536@village.doctools.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 17:23:40 -0400
From: "Eve L. Maler" \<elm@arbortext.com>
Subject: Correction to Davenport mailing list instructions

Please forgive this "junk post," but I inadvertently gave the wrong address
for signing up to the Davenport mailing list when I announced the new
version of DocBook.  To join, send mail to listproc@online.ora.com with a
message body of "subscribe davenport Your Name of Your Company".  If you've
already sent mail to the other address, the request was accepted, so
there's no need to re-send.

Sorry for the confusion,

-- 
        Eve Maler
        elm@arbortext.com
</message>
<message id="<811114133snz@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>" date="3020102933" seqno="10768">
From: Martin Bryan \<mtbryan@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HyTime Linking & 'Mainstream' SGML
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 21:28:53 GMT
Organization: The SGML Centre
Message-ID: <811114133snz@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>
References: \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca> <4323aj$q26@pubxfer2.news.psi.net> <432l5h$odt@crl2.crl.com>
Reply-To: mtbryan@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk

One of the problems with ESIS is that it is always based on a previously
created instance. There is a fundamental difference between describing
what has happened and what is permitted to be created. ESIS records
the past: a DTD records the future. What is interesting is how you
record the present. This is what you need for editing. It is the combination
of the past as recorded by the DTD and the future as recorded by the ESIS
definition of all preceding data. ESIS is useful for processing what exists
as a document entity (which must be a complete entity). As a tool for 
describing the editing process it stinks. Hence the need to go beyond ESIS
for DSSSL, and for any authoring environment.
-- 
Martin Bryan @ The SGML Centre, Churchdown, Glos. GL3 2PU, UK (+44 1452 714029)
</message>
<message id="<811115567snz@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>" date="3020104367" seqno="10769">
From: Martin Bryan \<mtbryan@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Looking for ESIS definition.
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 21:52:47 GMT
Organization: The SGML Centre
Message-ID: <811115567snz@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>
References: <43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>
Reply-To: mtbryan@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk

In article <43273l$asa@csgrad.cs.vt.edu>
           fdrake@csgrad.cs.vt.edu "Fred L. Drake Jr." writes:

> 
>   I'm looking for a formal definition of the Element Structure
> Information Set.

The formal definition will be in an Annex of the SGML conformance standard,
which will be ISO/IEC 13673. Unfortunately the text for this has still
to be sent to ISO for publication so the only thing you can get today
is a copy of the Draft International Standard DIS 13673, which you
should be able to obtain from you national standards office.
(The ESIS spec will not change between draft and final version of the
standard.) 

-- 
Martin Bryan @ The SGML Centre, Churchdown, Glos. GL3 2PU, UK (+44 1452 714029)
</message>
<message id="<43bqps$4ui@usenet1.interramp.com>" date="3020123692" seqno="10770">
From: Goldfarb@InterRamp.com (Charles F. Goldfarb)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Looking for a list of SGML books (introductory)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 03:14:52 GMT
Organization: Information Management Consulting
Message-ID: <43bqps$4ui@usenet1.interramp.com>
References: <42spnu$8l5@aadt.sdt.com>
Reply-To: Goldfarb@InterRamp.com

ajay_goel@sdt.com (Ajay K Goel) wrote:

>Does anyone have a list of books which serve as an introduction to
>SGML?  Also, if any of this info is available on-line please supply
>details on how to retrieve

I'm sure you'll get a lot of responses to this post -- and the optimum
introductory book will, of course, depend on the background and
interests of the reader to whom it is being introduced -- but I guess
I would be unfair to my publisher -- Prentice-Hall -- if I  didn't
take this opportunity to announce the first book in my eponymous (is
that right?) series on Open Information Management (which, by the way,
has much shorter sentences than this one):

README.1ST: SGML for Writers and Editors

by Ron  Turner, Tim Douglass, and Audrey Turner


I wrote a foreword praising the strengths of the book but I can net it
out quickly for the knowledgeable CTS group:

1. It is painstakingly introductory, spending pages on fundamental
concepts that many  books cover in a few paragraphs.

2. It puts the reader first, SGML second. That is, it motivates the
study of SGML concepts by presenting them in the context of things
that the readers (i.e. writers and editors) know they need to be able
to do.

3. It teaches and uses the ISO standard SGML vocabulary consistently
and universally. You can go from this book to The SGML Handbook and
not have to relearn or unlearn anything.

4. It is as accurate as the authors and I could make it.

As you can see, I'm not exactly dispassionate about this book. I think
the authors (professional teachers, among other things) did a great
job and that the book fills a vital gap in the current SGML library.
It will play an important role in spreading the word about SGML to the
larger community that is now starting to investigate it.

And having the amazing distribution power of Prentice-Hall (world's
largest English-language publisher) behind SGML doesn't hurt a bit.
The book just came out this week and advance orders from major
bookstore chains have been so large that a second printing  is being
ordered. Border's is even planning to advertise it!

I hope all of you like it as much as I do. The authors and I would
love to get your feedback (right here, or else there is an e-mail
address in the book).

Best regards,

Charles Goldfarb

Editor, "Charles F. Goldfarb Series on Open Information Management"

P.S.: If you have an idea for a book that ought to be in this series,
please let me know.

</message>
<message id="<43bvhr$nt3$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com>" date="3020161019" seqno="10771">
From: Raymond H. Stachowiak <74453.1747@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: olias
Date: 15 Sep 1995 13:36:59 GMT
Organization: System Consulting
Message-ID: <43bvhr$nt3$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com>
References: \<DEsqEr.GEE@oasis.icl.co.uk>

My understanding is that HAL is still alive in Austin with Olias. 
I thought Frame/Datalogics and Olias struck up a marketing 
relationship only. But I could be wrong.
</message>
<message id="<43c3sl$765@caladan.restena.lu>" date="3020165461" seqno="10772">
From: Manuel Tomas CARRASCO BENITEZ \<carrasco@tcp.ip.lu>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Other language fonts in html...
Date: 15 Sep 1995 14:51:01 GMT
Organization: Carrasco
Message-ID: <43c3sl$765@caladan.restena.lu>
References: <42l7gb$ekg@orchard.la.locus.com>

It should be done with UNICODE.  The facilities are in the definition of HTLM 2
but are implemted by few products.  There is a new Internet draft elaborating
on this.  I assume that the next generation of products will include this
facilities: there is money to be made.

The question of multilinguism is more than the character set.  Have a look in:
 http://www.echo.lu/other/norm.html 

Regards and good luck


</message>
<message id="<43c6ho$8u4@yama.mcc.ac.uk>" date="3020168184" seqno="10773">
From: Chris Lilley \<chris.lilley@mcc.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Where can I find HTML DTD?
Date: 15 Sep 1995 15:36:24 GMT
Organization: Manchester and North HPC Training & Education Centre
Message-ID: <43c6ho$8u4@yama.mcc.ac.uk>
References: <424to9$hgu@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>,\<mvulpe-0309951216180001@ri4i001.i4i.org> <42cnfv$imd@hopper.acm.org>
To: davep@ACM.ORG

davep@ACM.ORG wrote:

>In article \<mvulpe-0309951216180001@ri4i001.i4i.org>,
> mvulpe@i4i.org (Michel Vulpe) writes: [stuff]

>Shame on you, Michel.  What you have transmitted is much more than the
>DTD.

And also much less ;-)

>  The "shame", of course, is not for transmitting the material--it's
>all useful--but for not identifying correctly what the material is.

Quite so. [valid comments about SGML declarations omitted]

>>\<!DOCTYPE HTML [
>
>Explicitly inside the document type declaration is found the formal
>part of the DTD (not the best place for it, but legal):
>
>>\<!-- Jul 1 93 -->

The HTML 2.0 DTD is dated 

  $Id: html.dtd,v 1.29 1995/08/04 17:50:22 connolly Exp $

The incredibly ancient declaration and DTD which was posted to this 
newsgroup has been obsolete for over 18 months. Interested people should 
refer to the final version of the HTML 2.0 DTD, at:

  http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/html-spec/html.dtd

You can also find the SGML declaration at

  http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/html-spec/html.decl

you will also need

  http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/html-spec/ISOlat1.sgml

There is also an SGML Open style Entity Catalog, giving mappings from formal
public identifiers to typical file names, at

  http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/MarkUp/html-spec/catalog
  
>It would appear that the author of this material, judging by the comment in
>the DTD which says "The role of SGML document entity is filled by this DTD,
>followed by the conventional HTML data stream", was also confused as to just
>what a DTD is. 

Was being the operative term; the quoted phrase has not appeared in the 
HTML 2.0 DTD for at least a year.

-- 
Chris Lilley, Technical Author
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|       Manchester and North HPC Training & Education Centre        |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Computer Graphics Unit,             Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk |
| Manchester Computing Centre,        Voice: +44 161 275 6045       |
| Oxford Road, Manchester, UK.          Fax: +44 161 275 6040       |
| M13 9PL                            BioMOO: ChrisL                 |
|     URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/lilley.html       | 
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

</message>
<message id="<43ciub$i63@inxs.ncren.net>" date="3020180875" seqno="10774">
From: nacia@src.org
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: NC Users' Group meeting
Date: 15 Sep 1995 19:07:55 GMT
Organization: Semiconductor Research Corporation
Message-ID: <43ciub$i63@inxs.ncren.net>
Reply-To: nacia@src.org

North Carolina SGML Users' Group
STC Professional Interest Committee
Kickoff Meeting

Where: SAS Institute, Cary, NC (Bldg. F auditorium)
When:  Thursday, September 21, 1995, 7 pm
Agenda:  Users of Standard Generalized Markup Language from Triangle-area
companies will talk about their experience with this international standard
for document markup.  Also, a guest speaker from the Graphics Communications
Assn. will offer information about national SGML training, conferences,
and resources.

This introductory meeting is open to any interested person at no charge.

For more information or directions to the meeting location, contact the
group secretary (info below).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| Nacia Avera                             E-mail: nacia@src.org  |
| Technical Writer/Analyst                Phone: (919) 541-9470  |
| Semiconductor Research Corp.              Fax: (919) 541-9450  |
| P.O. Box 12053, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina  27709  |
|                              + + +                             |
|     \<!-- SGML: Seeking a Greater Meaning than Layout -->       |
..................................................................
</message>
<message id="<43d2cc$d45$2@mhafm.production.compuserve.com>" date="3020196684" seqno="10775">
From: JR (John Rogers) <72634.2402@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Where is Bob Agnew?
Date: 15 Sep 1995 23:31:24 GMT
Organization: CompuServe, Inc. (1-800-689-0736)
Message-ID: <43d2cc$d45$2@mhafm.production.compuserve.com>

Hi all!  I'm trying to get in touch with Bob Agnew,
who was active in this newsgroup last year.  At the time,
I think his email addr was agnew@actd.saic.com, but now I get
"host not found" when I use it for email.

Please email me; I don't use Usenet much nowadays.
Thanks in advance!
--JR (John Rogers)

-- 
JR (John Rogers)
Internet: 72634.2402@CompuServe.com
</message>
<message id="<rdavis.14.00644B96@ozemail.com.au>" date="3020203944" seqno="10776">
From: rdavis@ozemail.com.au (Ron Davis)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: IBM DCF to Word for Windows Converter
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:32:24 +1000
Organization: Hobotechnics Pty Ltd
Message-ID: \<rdavis.14.00644B96@ozemail.com.au>

Hi All,
Hard to find an appropriate group to post this query to,  I know its not 
strictly an SGML question but IBM DCF is a lot like SGML (I believe) so 
maybe some-one here can help me.
I am looking for a macro or program which will take a file in IBM's Mainframe
 DCF/GML format and convert it to aformat which can be read by MS Word
 for Windows (WFW).  I am pretty confident that I could write such a program
 (maybe going from DCF to RTF and then reading 
that into WFW) but I don't want to do it if it already exists.  Many large 
organisations have their mainframe documentation in DCF format and would 
probably like to port them to WFW for network accessability so I think it 
would be a valuable utility.  If you know of such a function (or would be 
interested in one) please email me atrdavis@ozemail.com.auThanks
Ron D. 
</message>
<message id="<43cr1q$9je@news.duke.edu>" date="3020189178" seqno="10777">
From: ruslan@acpub.duke.edu (Robin LaPasha)
Newsgroups: triangle.talks,comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML User's Group?
Date: 15 Sep 1995 17:26:18 -0400
Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA
Message-ID: <43cr1q$9je@news.duke.edu>
Summary: where's the Triangle SGML group?
Keywords: when, where, SGML, Triangle?

I remember mention of an SGML user's group about a year
ago.  They met monthly somewhere in the RTP.

Are they/you still around?

When/where do they/you meet?

Thanks in advance,


-- 
Robin LaPasha                          Soviet Literature Scanning Project
ruslan@acpub.duke.edu                  Duke University
</message>
<message id="<43frgd$kkm@yucca.ossi.com>" date="3020287949" seqno="10778">
From: ralph@ossi.com (Ralph Ferris)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HyTime Linking & 'Mainstream' SGML
Date: 16 Sep 1995 17:52:29 -0700
Organization: Fujitsu Open Systems Solutions, Inc.
Message-ID: <43frgd$kkm@yucca.ossi.com>
References: \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca> <4323aj$q26@pubxfer2.news.psi.net> <432l5h$odt@crl2.crl.com>

jenglish@crl.com (Joe English) writes:


>W. Eliot Kimber \<kimber@passage.com> wrote:

>> The HyTime definition assumes your processor has more
>>than ESIS-level information available to it.

>This is what seems bizarre to me.  As an SGML user, I want
>to use attributes to specify link endpoints.  As a DTD designer,
>I want to use IDREF, ENTITY, and ENTITIES attributes to specify
>link endpoints.  Any structure-controlled SGML application *needs*
>to have entities named in an attribute value or explicitly 
>referenced before it can use them as link endpoints.
>So why does HyTime insist that entity names appear as the 
>*content* of 'nmloc' form elements?

>--Joe English

First, a slight correction to the above: there is no `nmloc` 
(architectural) form. There is a `nameloc` form; the content of
`nameloc` form elements may be `nmlist` or `nmquery` form elements. 
The content of an `nmlist` form element is a "List of local or
external ID or entity names" so it's `nmlist` form elements that are
being referred to in the question above.

The basic issue is that SGML IDREFs can only refer to IDs in the
same parsing context, i.e., the same name space. They cannot be
used for cross-document references, unless all of the individual
documents appear inside a high-level "wrapper" element that makes them
appear as one document to the parser. In that case though, individual id
values must be unique, since they occur in the same name space. That 
is, you can't have, for example, two books in the collection you are 
parsing with ids of "B1" or a chapter in Book1 and a chapter in Book2 
both of which have ids of "C1". So if we're going to do cross-document 
referencing to documents: 

- that we don't have write-access to (to correct id value clashes); or 

- whose source files aren't accessible for inclusion in the parsing 
  stream; or

- because we have a large number of documents and don't want to
  reparse the entire set every time one of them changes;

we need more that what SGML's ID/IDREF mechanism provides.
We also need a different mechanism if we want to refer from one
document to a subdocument, since IDREFs in one document cannot be 
used for references to IDs in SUBDOCs, which occupy a different name 
space. 

HyTime's indirect addressing mechanisms were created to solve
these problems. To support indirect addressing and avoid the problems
explained above, unique identifiers have to be used without being 
constrained as SGML IDs. The also have to be resolved within 
*separate* name spaces. To support these features, the HyTime designers 
had to chose between having the ids entered as CDATA attributes of 
`nmlist` form elements for interpretation by a "HyTime engine" or as 
the content of those elements. Content was chosen, because of the 
length constraints on SGML attributes and start tags: In the reference 
concrete syntax, the total length of attribute names and values cannot 
exceed 960 characters, regardless of the type of attributes used. The 
HyTime designers felt that this value might easily be exceeded - and by 
amounts that cannot be anticipated. ("One byte too many" will result in 
an SGML parsing error.) By making the unique identifiers content 
instead of attribute values the potential problems caused by this 
restriction were avoided. This same reasoning applies to making entity 
references content instead of attribute values - as attribute values 
the same problems caused by length restrictions could occur.

Finally, returning to the statement that

> Any structure-controlled SGML application *needs*
> to have entities named in an attribute value or explicitly 
> referenced before it can use them as link endpoints.

the preceding explanation has hopefully clarified the limitations
of what can be done with this approach. HyTime linking adds features 
that are essential to the more flexible, and hence wider use, of
SGML documents. For further explanation and examples of HyTime's 
linking mechanisms, please see the "HyTime Application Development 
Guide" available from ftp.techo.com in 
pub/HyTime/Application_Development_Guide.


*********************************************************************

Ralph E. Ferris
Project Manager, Electronic Publications
Fujitsu Open Systems Solutions, Inc. (FOSSI), Engineering Services
Phone: (408) 456-7806 Fax: (408) 456-7050
E-mail: ralph@ossi.com

A Davenport Group sponsor.  For information on the Davenport 
  Group see ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/README.html
        or  http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html


</message>
<message id="<GTN.95Sep16122829@ebt-inc>" date="3020257709" seqno="10779">
From: gtn@ebt-inc (Gavin Nicol)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Other language fonts in html...
Date: 16 Sep 1995 16:28:29 GMT
Organization: Electronic Book Technologies, Inc.
Message-ID: \<GTN.95Sep16122829@ebt-inc>
References: <42l7gb$ekg@orchard.la.locus.com> <43c3sl$765@caladan.restena.lu>
In-reply-to: Manuel Tomas CARRASCO BENITEZ's message of 15 Sep 1995 14:51:01 GMT

>It should be done with UNICODE.  The facilities are in the definition
>of HTLM 2 but are implemted by few products.  There is a new Internet
>draft elaborating on this.  I assume that the next generation of
>products will include this facilities: there is money to be made. 

Well, I whould note that the draft only changes the document character
set to ISO 10646, and that it is only a draft. When  (if?) it does
become part of the HTML standard, there will still be still no
requirement that clients accept the full character repetiore of ISO
10646. only that they parse the subset they understand in a conformant
manner (barring numeric character references which must be resolved
using the document character set).
 
>The question of multilinguism is more than the character set.

Quite. One problem with the WWW is that people tend to look at
individual pieces, rather than the application as a whole. As such,
one piece gets fixed, but other pieces don't, so we end up missing out
on important functionality.


--

Gavin Thomas Nicol                | He who will not reason, is a bigot;
Electronic Book Technologies      | he who cannot is a fool; 
Email:      gtn@ebt.com           | and he who dares not is a slave. 
Phone/FAX:  +81-3-3706-7351       |       --- Sir William Drummond

</message>
<message id="<DF087r.CAH@freenet.carleton.ca>" date="3020253975" seqno="10780">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: aj064@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Eric Promislow)
Subject: Re: HyTime Linking & 'Mainstream' SGML
Message-ID: \<DF087r.CAH@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: aj064@freenet3.carleton.ca (Eric Promislow)
Reply-To: aj064@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Eric Promislow)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca> <4323aj$q26@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:26:15 GMT

W. Eliot Kimber (kimber@passage.com) writes:
> In article \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca>, cm298@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says...
>  
>>OmniMark has suggested we preprocess the document, pulling out all entity
>>references into a table that their down-translation converter could access. 
>>We'll be testing how much of a performance hit our system will take with
>>this approach.
> 

Just to follow up on this for those who are still interested:

We at Exoterica worked out a one-pass solution to the problem of converting
a piece of PCDATA into an actual entity reference.  I think the only
assumption the OmniMark program makes is that nameloc/nmlist elements
contain only one reference (this seems to be the practice, don't ask
me where a nmlist element would have more than one item in it nor what
that would mean).  You don't need to parse the DTD (since OmniMark
contains a parser that does a good job of that), just handle the
pertinent elements.

For info on the particular program, email support@exoterica.com.
Best to use this subject (HyTime Linking & 'Mainstream' SGML).

-- Eric Promislow
--
Eric Promislow       aj064@freenet.carleton.ca

"... if you're ready to explore the limits of technology, you belong at
Microsoft." -- MS career ad, Wall Street Journal, 3/21/95
</message>
<message id="<1995Sep17.121841.2032@gp.co.nz>" date="3020282321" seqno="10781">
From: gpwrjje@gp.co.nz
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: HTML tags
Message-ID: <1995Sep17.121841.2032@gp.co.nz>
Date: 17 Sep 95 12:18:41 +1300
Organization: GP Print Ltd, Wellington, New Zealand

In SGML, we have DTD's, which can be read and possible tags their attributes
can be obtained. I want to create some HTML documents, but I have no idea of
what tags I can use, their attributes or what they do. Does anyone know of the
tags allowed in HTML, and what they do? I take it that there must be some
standard for HTML, otherwise browsers wouldn't be able to read many documents.
Could someone post or email details of the HTML tags?

Thanks in advance,

Cheers,

      _                                 "If a picture paints
     | |                                 a thousand words,
     | | ___ _ __ ___   ___ _ __    	 then doodles don't
 _   | |/ _ \\ '_// _ \\ / _ \\ '_  \\       amount to much."
| |__| |  __/ | | (_) |  __/ | | |             - HEADLESS CHICKENS
 \\____/ \\___|_|  \\___/ \\___|_| |_|

E-mail : jeroen@gp.co.nz

</message>
<message id="<43i232$43k@news-e1a.megaweb.com>" date="3020346072" seqno="10782">
From: DKinney@megaweb.com (Diane Kinney)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Opinions on Microsoft SGML Author for Word
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 17:01:12
Organization: Megaweb
Message-ID: <43i232$43k@news-e1a.megaweb.com>
References: template and build a "template initialization" <41dic8$eae@larry.infi.net>


In article <41dic8$eae@larry.infi.net> Philip C. Murray wrote:
>Date:	22 Aug 1995 17:31:52 -0400
>From:	pmurray@news.infi.net (Philip C. Murray)
>Newsgroups:	comp.text.sgml
>Subject:	Opinions on Microsoft SGML Author for Word
>
>I'm currently writing a review of SGML Author for Word and 
>would like to receive:
> 
>1. Additional opinions about how good it is (or is not).

It is not good at ALL! It fundamentally ignores the standard 
and forces the experienced SGML developer to do "stuff" that 
they would otherwise consider to be unacceptable, or "bad", 
SGML.

The worst is that it will force tagging into a document to 
create a "parseable" state.  I don't know how the rest of the 
SGML community feels about this, but I would rather generate a 
parsing error for someone to have to fix outside of the 
original authoring environment than to have tagging forced into 
my documents with the word "dummy" inside the tags.  Imagine 
publishing that by mistake!  "Parsing" is part of creating a 
good document, not the POINT of creating the document!

In addition, develop time is way too high--if I just had to 
bear the cost of a major conversion of a massive amount of 
legacy data to SGML, I do NOT want to spend months developing 
an application for my authors to maintain the data!  Why can't 
this be EASY!


> 
>2. Opinions about what applications or environments might be 
>be best/worst served by SGML Author -- as opposed to SGML 
>context-sensitive editors like SoftQuad Author/Editor and 
>Arbortext Adept Editor.
>

Let me give you a wish list--

a. I want my authors to be able to use Word for Windows or Word 
Perfect for Windows, whichever they are trained on, to author 
documents in SGML.  Common sense should teach us this.

b. I do not want them to have to write "in structure".  Too may 
"SGML Editors" (read - not Word Processors) force the author to 
write top-down.  There are many documents created from the 
inside out.  I recently completed work on an application that 
starts with a citation to a single court case; it expands to a 
document that can be published at up to 500 pages.  That 
citation is an inclusion at the very lowest level within the 
ultimate SGML structure.  My authors do not say, "ok, Chapter 
1, what am I going to say?".  Like most research authors, their 
thoughts evoluve from a small concept and expand out.

c. I want my development time to be practically NOTHING. We 
spend much money on design (both SGML and database), conversion 
and output processing "filters" or "translations".  Please, 
can't we just "give" the application the DTD and sample data 
and it "develops" itself?

>3. Contact information for people who would like to discuss 
>their experiences with SGML Author.

That would be me--
dkinney@lcp.com
> 
>4. How does it stack up against IntelliTag for
> Novell/WordPerfect?
> 
>We understand that several of SGML Author's deficiencies 
>will be remedied in coming versions, so I would like to
> focus 
>on fundamental product philosophy -- for example,
> post-process
>conversion of word-processor styles vs. interactive markup
> -- 
>more than on performance of the current version.
> 
>I will summarize and post responses if there are more than a
>few and there is interest in seeing such a summary.
> 
> 
>Thanks, 
>
>	Phil Murray
>-- 
>Philip C. Murray                        pmurray@infi.net
>Electronic Information Age, Inc.
>Publishers of the _EIA Electronic Document Report_
>462 Washington St., Portsmouth, VA 23704  804-397-4644

</message>
<message id="<43ir64$7hn@mis.cpc.ku.ac.th>" date="3020385924" seqno="10783">
From: s35mtv@cc2.cpe.ku.ac.th (Montri Viroontanawong)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: FAQ
Date: 18 Sep 1995 04:05:24 GMT
Organization: Kasetsart University InterNetNews Site
Message-ID: <43ir64$7hn@mis.cpc.ku.ac.th>

	Please anyone tell me where FAQ are 
						Montri V.
						s35mtv@cc2.cpe.ku.ac.th
</message>
<message id="<43jakm$ba2@news-2.csn.net>" date="3020401750" seqno="10784">
From: "Brian E. Travis" \<btravis@sgml.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Looking for a list of SGML books (introductory)
Date: 18 Sep 1995 08:29:10 GMT
Organization: Information Architects, Inc.
Message-ID: <43jakm$ba2@news-2.csn.net>
References: <42spnu$8l5@aadt.sdt.com>

ajay_goel@sdt.com (Ajay K Goel) wrote:
>Does anyone have a list of books which serve as an introduction to
>SGML?  Also, if any of this info is available on-line please supply
>details on how to retrieve

My new book, The SGML Implementation Guide, should be available "any 
minute" at Borders and Barnes & Nobel. Co-author Dale Waldt and I spent 
two years collecting our notes on what it was like to start implementing 
SGML, then brought together 525 pages of information on building the 
business case, starting and managing the project, and, of course, 
information about the standard itself in reference form.

There is a healthy chapter titled "Understanding SGML" that contains 
concise illustrations and tables on each of the declarations in the 
language. A chapter titled "Tipniques and Pratfalls" is a collection of 
dozens of handy tips, techniques, practices and pitfalls that we and 
other SGML implementors have encountered over the years.

This book is written for the SGML implementor (or potential implementor), 
not for the academic. It is designed to provide the information someone 
needs to get started in the world of SGML, plus enough "meat" to pull off 
your first SGML project.

There are several appendicies, including the DTD used for the book and a 
comprehensive list of products and other resources for the SGML 
implementor. Addresses of companies are also provided.

The publisher is Springer-Verlag. The SGML Implementation Guide, 525 
pages, by Brian E. Travis and Dale C. Waldt, ISBN 3-540-57730-0.


</message>
<message id="<43js24$h4a@naurouze.cert.fr>" date="3020419588" seqno="10785">
From: hollende \<Martin.Hollender@onecert.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Looking for HyTime LINK examples (Panorama)
Date: 18 Sep 1995 13:26:28 GMT
Organization: EURISCO
Message-ID: <43js24$h4a@naurouze.cert.fr>

I would like to study complex examples of HyTime Links
(e.g. ilinks). Does anybody know where I can find such
documents?
SoftQuad Panorama has some HyTime support, so I would be
very interested in URLs to demonstrate the HyTime hyperlinking 
capabilities of Panorama.
Thank you very much
Martin Hollender


</message>
<message id="<43k1sl$epp@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3020425557" seqno="10786">
From: "Daniel H. West" \<westdh@lfwc.lockheed.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Any Interest in an IETM Side-Meeting at CALS EXPO '95?
Date: 18 Sep 1995 15:05:57 GMT
Organization: LMTAS
Message-ID: <43k1sl$epp@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>

Greetings!

Since a number of the major players in IETM development across the DoD 
service branches, as well as, industry and commercial areas will be in 
attendance at CALS EXPO '95 anyway, I thought I'd solicit interest in 
holding an informal meeting or discussion.

This is NOT an attempt to resolve anything, just an open forum for IETM
related discussion.  No one person or organization knows THE way to handle 
IETMs, much less, the perfection of the processes for their creation. 

But, many minds together may open up some useful exchange for everyone. 
Let's have some fun talking about this "leading edge, cutting edge, razor's 
edge, or whatever-edge" approach to electronic authoring and presention of 
data. This is neutral ground, no hidden agendas, no company spiels.

Anyone interested can send me EMAIL with their length of stay and preferred
availability (and location) to meet.  I'll be glad to attempt to coordinate
a meeting place. You did make your reservations already, didn't you?

Please let me know what you think. All persons involved in some fashion with 
IETMs are welcome to participate. No sales pitches, please!

I can be reached at the numbers and email address listed below.

-- 
****************************************************************************
Regards -- Daniel                   "Ars Longus,  Viva Brevis"

Daniel H. West                   Tel:   817-935-4762
F-22 IETM Development            FAX:   817-935-3800
Lockheed Martin                  email: westdh@lfwc.lockheed.com (POP Mail)
Tactical Aircraft Systems         -or-  dhwest@lfwc.lockheed.com (MSMail)
****************************************************************************
The opinions expressed above are those of the author of this e-mail 
and do not necessarily represent the views of the Lockheed Martin Corp.
****************************************************************************


</message>
<message id="<43k30g$glq@zippy.cais.net>" date="3020426704" seqno="10787">
From: agm@cais3.cais.com (Adam Guasch-Melendez)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HTML tags
Date: 18 Sep 1995 15:25:04 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
Message-ID: <43k30g$glq@zippy.cais.net>
References: <1995Sep17.121841.2032@gp.co.nz>

gpwrjje@gp.co.nz wrote:
: In SGML, we have DTD's, which can be read and possible tags their attributes
: can be obtained. I want to create some HTML documents, but I have no idea of
: what tags I can use, their attributes or what they do. Does anyone know of the
: tags allowed in HTML, and what they do? I take it that there must be some
: standard for HTML, otherwise browsers wouldn't be able to read many documents.
: Could someone post or email details of the HTML tags?

There are DTDs available for HTML 2.0 and 3.0, but not for the 
"extensions" Netscape is pushing. Check out http://www.w3.org/
</message>
<message id="<DF44Cw.6MK@contex.com>" date="3020435600" seqno="10788">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: Mike Peterson \<mikep@contex.com>
Subject: HTML Viewer
Message-ID: \<DF44Cw.6MK@contex.com>
Sender: usenet@contex.com (News Owner)
Organization: Contex Prepress Systems
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:53:20 GMT

Does anyone know of a simple html viewer in the public domain that could be
linked to an application as an online help system. I know I could use Netscape,
but I am looking for something that has a simple interface and now Web buttons
or menus.
-- 
Mike Peterson

</message>
<message id="<43kq4m$m55@yucca.ossi.com>" date="3020450390" seqno="10789">
From: ralph@ossi.com (Ralph Ferris)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: olias
Date: 18 Sep 1995 14:59:50 -0700
Organization: Fujitsu Open Systems Solutions, Inc.
Message-ID: <43kq4m$m55@yucca.ossi.com>
References: \<DEsqEr.GEE@oasis.icl.co.uk> <43bvhr$nt3$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com>

To clarify the status of HaL's OLIAS browser:

- OLIAS technology is owned by Fujitsu, Ltd., which continues
  to use it in support of its UNIX product line. OLIAS is
  also the document browser for HaL's own workstations, which
  are being demo'd at UNIX Expo this week. 

- OLIAS development work is continuing at HaL's site in Austin
  (HaL is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Fujitsu, Ltd).

- Fujitsu has contributed the OLIAS browser technology to the
  OSF's CDE/Motif Project. To quote from the OSF press release
  (Sept. 7, 1995):

  "Fujitsu is pleased to support the evolution of CDE and Motif 
  technology, both by contributing the Fujitsu OLIAS technology for a 
  robust CDE Online Information Access feature, and by improving 
  CDE/Motif Internationalization. Providing a common user interface 
  over many different hardware systems is critical to the future of 
  Open Systems"

- OLIAS can be seen as part of the CDE project demonstrations that
  are being given at UNIX Expo in New York.


Ralph E. Ferris
Project Manager, Electronic Publications
Fujitsu Open Systems Solutions, Inc. (FOSSI), Engineering Services
Phone: (408) 456-7806 Fax: (408) 456-7050
E-mail: ralph@ossi.com

A Davenport Group sponsor.  For information on the Davenport 
  Group see ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/README.html
        or  http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html




</message>
<message id="<43kvtb$6f6@pubxfer4.news.psi.net>" date="3020456299" seqno="10790">
From: kimber@passage.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HyTime Linking & 'Mainstream' SGML
Date: 18 Sep 1995 23:38:19 GMT
Organization: Passage Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <43kvtb$6f6@pubxfer4.news.psi.net>
References: \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca> <4323aj$q26@pubxfer2.news.psi.net> \<DF087r.CAH@freenet.carleton.ca>

In article \<DF087r.CAH@freenet.carleton.ca>, aj064@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says...
>
>W. Eliot Kimber (kimber@passage.com) writes:
>> In article \<DEGDB6.H45@freenet.carleton.ca>, cm298@FreeNet.Carleton.CA says...
>>  
>>>OmniMark has suggested we preprocess the document, pulling out all entity
>>>references into a table that their down-translation converter could access. 
>>>We'll be testing how much of a performance hit our system will take with
>>>this approach.
>> 
>
>Just to follow up on this for those who are still interested:
>
>We at Exoterica worked out a one-pass solution to the problem of converting
>a piece of PCDATA into an actual entity reference.  I think the only
>assumption the OmniMark program makes is that nameloc/nmlist elements
>contain only one reference (this seems to be the practice, don't ask
>me where a nmlist element would have more than one item in it nor what
>that would mean). 

One of the reasons for having a name list element form in the first place
is to enable the location of multiple objects from a single referece. There
are many reasons to do this. As for what it would mean, that depends on the
semantics of the thing making the reference. For example, if the reference
is from a hyperlink to one of its anchors, then the multiple objects
located by the name list are treated, in aggregate, as the anchor (an
"aggregate anchor"). This happens all the time in hypertext systems (for sample, 
from the definition of a term to all mentions of that term). It is unfortunate that 
many existing hypertext systems (HTML, DynaText, SmartText, etc.) do not support
aggregate anchors, but there are some that do: SoftQuad Panorama, IBM BookManager
(on VM and MVS only, last time I looked), as well as many research and prototype
hypertext systems.

Note that in my post my reference to multiple passes didn't have anything to
do with recognizing PCDATA content as an entity name [Which should be
trivial if you have access to the parser's entity lookup table, which is already
filled by the time the document instance processing starts.  But in any case,
entities named in name lists are equivalent to entities named in ENTITY
attributes, not direct entity references ("\&entname;"), and besides, the nametype
attribute of the nmlist element form tells you whether or not the content
is supposed to be an entity name, and therefore whether not you should be
looking it up in the entity declaration table.], but the need to
build an *ID* table on the first pass so that you can resolve forward references
on the second pass. In OmniMark, traditional cross references are handled in
"one pass" by a special feature of OmniMark that defers replacement of the 
result of a reference until the end of processing (which makes it sort of a 
streamlined second pass). I don't know if this feature could also be used to
handle all possible uses of indirect addressing, but somehow I doubt it, 
considering that references might be used for purposes other than generating
a cross reference.

Having said that though, let me stress that OmniMark, as a powerful tool for 
processing SGML in general would, of course, be an excellent choice for building 
HyTime processing as well (and I believe that Bob Streich at Schlumberger has done 
just that). I just don't think you can ever avoid the need for two passes when 
doing sequential processing of HyTime documents that allow forward references
(and note that support for forward references is an optional feature of HyTime,
although I can't imagine a useful system that wouldn't need or allow them).

And note that to process a hyperdocument, which is two or more documents 
hyperlinked together, you need to have some sort of indexing scheme to enable
quick access to other documents during processing of any other document, even
is this means keeping the results of your first-pass processing (although 
in theory you could always just parse the other documents as you needed to,
and this can always be a fallback strategy when the referenced document is
not already indexed). For this reason, I tend to think of HyTime processing in
the context of a hyperdocument management system that provides the required
indexing as part of its basic document management functionality. 

-- 
\<Address HyTime=bibloc>
W. Eliot Kimber (kimber@passage.com) Systems Analyst and HyTime Consultant
Passage Systems, Inc., 2608 Pinewood Terr., Austin TX 78757 (512)339-1400
10596 N. Tantau Ave, Cupertino CA, 95014, (408) 366-0300
"SGML or die"
\</Address>

</message>
<message id="<43lhaj$go9@hemuli.tte.vtt.fi>" date="3020474131" seqno="10791">
From: Kimmo Elovainio \<kelo>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Corel Ventura SGML
Date: 19 Sep 1995 04:35:31 GMT
Organization: Technical Research Centre of Finland, Information Technology
Message-ID: <43lhaj$go9@hemuli.tte.vtt.fi>

Hi,


I have heard that Corel will quite soon release the Ventura SGML publishing
tool. Has anybody any new information about that?
Thanks in advance!!

-Kimmo Elovainio
VTT Information Technology
e-mail: Kimmo.Elovainio@vtt.fi

</message>
<message id="<43l58i$4mn@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>" date="3020461778" seqno="10792">
From: mrjib@ix.netcom.com (Jesper Ib)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: One more opinion on Microsoft SGML Author for Word
Date: 19 Sep 1995 01:09:38 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <43l58i$4mn@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <41dic8$eae@larry.infi.net> <43i232$43k@news-e1a.megaweb.com>

Well, my first impression is that MS SGML Author does not deliver the
goods. It promises to work with "any DTD" but it will only work with
tables that matches the CALS DTD (which, by the way, does not match my
company's needs).

I'm running the program on a DX2-40 PC, and I know it's a quite slow
computer. Still, I find it unsatisfying that it spends 14 minutes and
30 seconds saving a file.

Jesper Ib
</message>
<message id="<43l6mg$719@newsbf02.news.aol.com>" date="3020463248" seqno="10793">
From: chuckallen@aol.com (Chuck Allen)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Job opening -- Alexandria, Va.
Date: 18 Sep 1995 21:34:08 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <43l6mg$719@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: chuckallen@aol.com (ChuckAllen)

RIA-Alexandria is a publisher of business compliance information services.
We are seeking a programmer analyst with experience preparing CD-ROM
information services. Primary responsibilities include:

- Data analysis;
- Providing design ideas for new products;
- Extracting data from SGML databases;
- Creating and implementing conversion procedures to create Folio flat
  files;
and
- Integrating graphics and tabular material.
 
Skills Required:

- Programming experience;
- Writing scripts and batch files;
- Data analysis;
- Converting one data tagging format to another; 
- Excellent communication skills; and
- Project management experience.

Additional Skills Preferred:
- OmniMark
- SGML
- Folio
- CD-ROM premastering software

We offer a competitive salary and a comprehensive benefits package.  For
consideration, send resume to:

RIA-Alexandria
Attn: HR Dept.
1340 Braddock Place, Suite 400
Alexandria, VA 22314

    or email: callen@tpp.com. 
</message>
<message id="<455334914wnr@infonol.demon.co.uk>" date="3020529895" seqno="10794">
From: john blackmore \<johnb@infonol.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: One more opinion on Microsoft SGML Author for Word
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:04:55 GMT
Organization: infonology limited
Message-ID: <455334914wnr@infonol.demon.co.uk>
References: <43l58i$4mn@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> template and build a "template initialization" <41dic8$eae@larry.infi.net> <43i232$43k@news-e1a.megaweb.com>
Reply-To: johnb@infonol.demon.co.uk

I believe a solution to slow "load and save" is to throw RAM at it - try 
adding 16Mb 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***John Blackmore, Infonology Limited, 3 Second Avenue, Nottingham, NG7 6JJ***
*Tel:+44 0115 960 2171 Fax:+44 0115 969 2669 e-mail:johnb@infonol.demon.co.uk*
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

</message>
<message id="<43ndcb$jou@nntp.Stanford.EDU>" date="3020535627" seqno="10795">
From: zalta@mally.Stanford.EDU (Ed Zalta)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Dictionary or Encyclopedia in TEI-compliant SGML?
Date: 19 Sep 1995 21:40:27 GMT
Organization: Stanford University
Message-ID: <43ndcb$jou@nntp.Stanford.EDU>

Can anyone point me to a dictionary or encyclopedia that has been  
marked up in TEI-compliant SGML?  
  Thanks in advance.

--
Edward N. Zalta
Senior Researcher
Center for the Study of Language and Information
Stanford University
http://mally.stanford.edu/zalta.html
</message>
<message id="<DF63ns.BMu@shellgate.shell.com>" date="3020528007" seqno="10796">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: ep40wwdu@noh71ae.shell.com (Waitus W. Denham)
Subject: VIEWING SGML FILES
Message-ID: \<DF63ns.BMu@shellgate.shell.com>
Sender: ep40wwdu@noh71ae (Waitus W. Denham)
Reply-To: ep40wwdu@shell.com
Organization: Shell Oil Company
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:33:27 GMT

I am looking for software packages for viewing SGML files.  What I would 
like is something that offers the power of Dynatext but works with the
SGML file.  I want both authors and viewers to work with the same data
file.  Is this possible?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.  You can email me directly at
ep40wwdu@shell.com.

Thanks in advance!

Dubby Denham



</message>
<message id="<43onu8$n9f@newsgate.dircon.co.uk>" date="3020579208" seqno="10797">
From: Bruce Hunter \<bruce@sgml.dircon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: HTML3 Equation and Table Authoring Tools??
Date: 20 Sep 1995 09:46:48 GMT
Organization: The Direct Connection (Call 0181 297 2200 for info)
Message-ID: <43onu8$n9f@newsgate.dircon.co.uk>

Does anyone know of any SGML authoring tools which provide any
rnedering support for the equation and table models proposed by the 
HTML3 DTD?

regards,

Bruce Hunter
SGML Systems Engineering
</message>
<message id="<43ofnh$oon@jupiter.iti.gov.sg>" date="3020570801" seqno="10798">
From: engsiong@iti.gov.sg (Tan Eng Siong)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,comp.text
Subject: SGML Asia-Pacific '95 Conference, Singapore
Date: 20 Sep 1995 07:26:41 GMT
Organization: Information Technology Institute, National Computer Board, Singapore.
Sender: Dr. Tan Eng Siong (engsiong@iti.gov.sg)
Message-ID: <43ofnh$oon@jupiter.iti.gov.sg>
Keywords: final program,call-for-participation, call-for-tool-exhibits


                  SGML Asia-Pacific '95 Conference 
                  ================================

	  Dates:      22 October, 1995 (Tutorial)
	              23-25 October, 1995 (Conference)
          Venue:      Singapore
	  Web page:   http://www.iti.gov.sg/conference/sgml95.html
	  Organizers: Graphics Communications Association, USA
		      National Computer Board, Singapore


SGML Asia-Pacific '95 - the only conference of its kind in the Pacific
Rim, is planned for Singapore, 23-25 October.  Representatives from
around the world and a variety of different industries will share their
SGML experiences. You will have the opportunity to meet the experts,
learn from real life experiences, and view tools and technologies that
will increase the ease at which you use SGML.

         --------------------------------------------------

If you are an SGML Novice:

Plan to attend the Introduction tutorials on Sunday, 22 October.
These tutorials will provide a basic overview on SGML for those who
are just beginning or would like to review existing knowledge. It is
recommended that all beginners attend prior to the conference.

         --------------------------------------------------

You should attend SGML Asia-Pacific if:

   + You develop or use SGML applications
   + You want to learn how others address the same technical or
     procedural problems you face
   + You want to see the latest offerings from SGML software
     developers
   + You are considering implementing SGML

         --------------------------------------------------

Table Top Demonstrations:

Software products are critical to all SGML implementations. SGML
Asia-Pacific will include technical demonstrations of a wide variety
of SGML tools. Scheduled sessions will be dedicated to
demonstrations by the technical staff of developers. If you are
interested in participating in these sessions, please contact the
conference committee person in your region.

         --------------------------------------------------

COMDEX/Asia at Singapore Informatics '95:

Plan to attend COMDEX/ASIA at Singapore Informatics '95 which
immediately follows SGML Asia-Pacific '95. Singapore Informatics is
a leading Information Technology (IT) event in the Asian region.
COMDEX shows are the world's premier IT events. For COMDEX/ Asia
details call (65) 284-8844 or Fax (65) 286-5754.

         --------------------------------------------------

Standard Generalized Markup Language (SGML):

ISO 8879, is being used by an ever-increasing number of
organizations to facilitate the creation, management, storage and
delivery of document-based information. As a standard, SGML goes far
beyond the goal of information interchange; it is also a tool for
managing and protecting an organization's data assets.

         --------------------------------------------------

Speakers from countries around the globe will be represented:
Australia, Hong Kong, New Zealand, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan,
England, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Canada and USA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Sunday, 22 October * Pre-Conference Tutorials

8:00 Tutorial Registration

9:00 - 12:00 Introduction to SGML Business

     Nick Carr, Allette Systems
     This tutorial is designed for people interested in
     understanding the management and economics of implementing SGML
     in addition to general technical principles. Not designed to
     "sell" SGML, the intention of the tutorial is to set realistic
     expectations of the demands of SGML. People who should attend
     are those with only a cursory knowledge of SGML, or those who
     are interested in putting for ward a business case for SGML.

9:00-17:00 ABCs of DSSSL
     Sharon Adler and Anders Berglund, Electronic Book Technologies;
     James Clark, Consultant
     This course will give you a basic overview of the concepts and
     terminology of the Document Style Semantics and Specifications
     Language (DSSSL). Its relationship to HyTime will also be
     discussed.

9:00 -17:00 HTML and Internet Publishing
     Jeff Suttor, Passage Systems
     This one-day overview of Internet publishing provides students
     with all the information they need to deliver information via
     the World Wide Web. The course discusses strategies and tactics
     that will ensure a successful transition to internet
     publishing.

13:00 - 17:00 Introduction to SGML Technical Issues
     Nick Carr, Allette Systems
     This tutorial is designed for those new to SGML, but with an
     understanding of traditional software development. Among other
     topics, it covers the basic components of an SGML application,
     the relationship between SGML and multimedia objects, and
     programming in the SGML environment. People who should attend
     are those with an understanding of programming or text
     processing and a basic comprehension of SGML principles. For
     those new to SGML, this tutorial is only recommended after
     first completing the Business Introduction Tutorial.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Monday, 23 October * SGML Asia-Pacific '95 Conference

7:30 Registration

9:00 Conference Welcome, Norman W Scharpf; President, GCA

9:15 International SGML News

     Nick Carr, Allette systems, Australia; Seet Chern Hway,
     Information Technology Institute, National Computer Board,
     Singapore; and Robin Masson, Uniscope, Japan
     Up to the minute information on SGML implementations around the
     globe.

9:45 Keynote: Making the Business Case for SGML, Graham Marshall,
Managing Director, Butterworths Asia

10:15 Break

10:45 Making SGML Work with Asian Character Sets

     James Clark, Consultant
     The technical keynote will described how SGML can work with
     Asian character sets. Can SGML properly support Asian character
     sets? The language of the World Wide Web is HTML, which is an
     application of SGML. Can HTML be made to support Asian
     languages and still remain a conforming application of SGML?
     The most recent addition to the SGML family of standards is the
     Document Style Semantics and Specification Language (DSSSL).
     How does this standard support Asian languages?

11:30 Standard Page Description Language (SPDL) and the Future of
Print-On-Demand

     Jeremiah Woolsey, QMS
     This presentation looks at how Print-On-Demand technologies are
     enabled under the new Standard Page Description Language (SPDL)
     standard ISO-EIC 10180, as well as other developing network
     standards for printing. Other topics to be discussed include:
     the SGML "wrapper" in SPDL, compressed CCITT-G4 image stamping
     and repagination, extended font definitions required for Asian
     character sets, electronic forms management, and GUls for
     network printer management.

l2:00 Lunch

l3:30 SGML and Infrastructure Projects Chair: Robin Masson, Uniscope

        +  ROC's Computerization Strategy on Office Document
          Management and Interchange

          Shy Ming Ju, Information Technology Research Center of
          Yuan-Ze Institute
          Mr. Ju will discuss the strategy developed at the Research
          Center to computerize the management and interchange of
          office documents in the ROC government. This strategy is
          based on SGML-document Preparation and Application
          Development Environment (SPADE).

        +  Open Markup Language for Publishing Japanese Documents by
          Electronic Distribution and Printing

          Yushi Komachi and Masayuki Hiyama, Panasonic
          According to the MlTl's plan for electronic distribution
          of white papers, GLOCOM was instructed to develop DTDs for
          precise description of all the white papers published.
          This presentation shows the details of the DTD design and
          an appropriate viewer, and clarifies the boundary between
          logical elements/attributes and formatting structures.

        +  The Adoption of SGML in Science Publishing

          K C Ang and Julia Yeong, Gordon and Breach
          This presentation provides a quick overview of the Gordon
          and Breach Publishing Group 92's activities, followed by
          coverage of changes in the ways publishers do their
          business today and tomorrow resulting from availability of
          new technologies. It details the adoption and use of SGML
          in the group 92's plans for its electronic publishing
          projects currently being developed.

15:00 Break

15:30 CALS Initiatives Chair: Nick Carr, Allette Systems

        o  Lieutenant Col. Alan Valentine and Major Dale Bradshaw,
          Australian Defense Forces
          The Australian Army Doctrine Center is responsible for the
          preparation and maintenance of the Army suite of training
          manuals. For the past two years, they have been
          implementing a system to convert paper manuals for
          distribution both online and via CD-ROM. This presentation
          will discuss the design, implementation and production
          processes from a user perspective.

        o  Australian CALS (Speaker TBD)

15:30 Multibyte/Multilingual Chair: James Clark, Consultant

        o  SGML and Unicode: Is this a Viable Option for Handling
          Multilingual Documents in SGML?

          Tony Buche, Time Lux
          SGML has proven its importance in today's world-wide
          economy. Its use on the Internet is a great example.
          However, world-wide economy doesn't equal world-wide
          culture. People will only buy documents in their own
          language. SGML entities may not be the most efficient way
          to tackle the character set problem. SGML and Unicode
          provide one alternative solution. Are they compatible? Are
          there better ways? Mr. Buche will explore these issues.

        o  What is Good Markup

          Rick Jelliffe, Allette Systems
          Both humans and computers read markup. What is good markup
          for computers? What is good markup for people? What is
          good markup for Asian language computers? What is good
          markup for Asian-language people? This presentation
          discusses the Extended Concrete Reference Syntax (CRS)
          proposals which look at what SGML needs to support
          non-English markup.

        o  The Multilingual World Wide Web

          Gavin Nicol, Electronic Book Technologies
          Japan HTML as a case study in multilingual SGML document
          processing. The World Wide Web is probably the largest,
          and is certainly the fastest-growing SGML application in
          the world. Despite it's fantastic, almost frantic,
          success, there are many unresolved issues facing the WWW
          community. HTML, the core text format of the WWW, has been
          undergoing a rapid evolution, of which a major part is
          requiring strict SGML compliance. HTML has, from the very
          earliest, failed to address the need for multilingual
          processing, despite the lofty aims implied by the phrase
          "World Wide Web ". Unfortunately, HTML is not the only
          culprit. In this session, an analysis of the requirements
          for a multilingual World Wide Web, an analysis of HTML's
          problems in this area, and possible solutions will be
          presented. These issues are relevant not only to HTML, but
          also to multilingual SGML processing in general as well.

17:00 Exhibits and Reception

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Tuesday 24 October * SGML Asia-Pacific '95 Conference

8:30 SGML Implementation, Conversion, and Management issues Chair:
Nick Carr, Allette Systems

        o  Biting the Bullet: How Went SGML

          Brian Travis, Information Architects
          , the SGML Newsletter, has been the primary source of
          information for the SGML implementor for the past eight
          years. Until recently, the newsletter has been produced
          using desktop publishing technology. This presentation
          briefly covers the reasons for the decision to adopt
          desktop publishing tools for the newsletter and later the
          reasons for the desire to create an SGML-based publishing
          system. The bulk of the presentation is devoted to the
          steps that were taken in moving to SGML., the compromises
          that were made, and lessons learned.

        o  A DTD Management System

          Mina Nishimura, Ricoh Corporation Ltd Document
          Type Definitions (DTDs) are usually either generic,
          representing common element types among different kinds of
          documents, or specific, representing the meanings of
          element types as well as their structural roles in
          documents. To eliminate the drawbacks of the two types of
          DTDs, a DTD management system has been developed. This
          presentation will discuss the advantages to the
          application and to the DTD developer.

        o  Spinning SGML Gold Out of Difficult Legacy Data

          Dale Waldt, Research Institute of America
          Conversion to SGML is more than just changing one set of
          codes to another. It involves the redefinition of the data
          structures needed to support the powerful environments for
          information creation and processing provided by SGML
          Systems. For the system to deliver the full benefit and
          power of SGML-smart coding, the data will need to be
          enhanced to a richer, less ambiguous form. This task can
          be daunting due to the inconsistencies of legacy data, the
          expense and complexity of the conversion process, the need
          to learn new tools and techniques, and the fine art of
          using conversion vendors. The SGML conversion process will
          be discussed, as will specific examples, tips, and
          software. Several quickcase studies will be presented to
          illustrate the process and costs associated with legacy
          conversion.

10:00 Break

10:30 SGML Implementation, Conversion, and Management Issues,
(continued)

        o  SGML Document Authoring with Document Templates

          Toru Matsuda, Ricoh Corporation Ltd
          SGML documents are usually created by using SGML editors.
          There are many good SGML editors, but many have problems.
          This talk will discuss the development of an SGML document
          authoring system which uses document templates generated
          from DTDs. With this system, users can create and convert
          documents easily into SGML documents, using the templates
          and their favorite editors.

        o  SGML: A Tool for Managing Information for Reuse

          Jon Parsons, Xyvision
          Using SGML successfully to reuse information requires an
          environment for managing the documents produced. One must
          design a DTD with reuse in mind and enforce conversions
          among the writers of the information. Identifying
          appropriate units for reuse (modularity), and providing
          access to tools for creating editing and recombining
          fragments to form new documents (document management) must
          be addressed. In addition, a means for managing and
          coordinating the development process among teams of people
          with radically different roles (workflow management) is
          needed. This talk will outline the importance of these and
          other areas in using SGML to reuse information for
          multiple purposes.

11:30 Poster Session

12:30 Lunch

13:30 Airline Industry Forum Chairs: Freelon Hunter, Boeing
Commercial Airplanes and Mike Bryan, Qantas

        o  Brian Almond, Cathay Pacific (To Be Confirmed)

        o  Eddie Nelson, British Airways (To Be Confirmed)

        o  State of SGML in the Air Transport Industry

          Ludo van Vooren, Jeppesen Sandersen
          This presentation will review the technical challenges
          faced by the Air Transport Industry and the solutions SGML
          has provided. These solutions will be presented in a
          general way, as many of them could be applicable to other
          industries. Finally, a description of the future
          applications of SGML in the Air Transport Industry will be
          reviewed.

        o  Real-World Experiences Using SGML for Commercial Aviation

          Helmuth Naumer, Digital Data Customer Support, Boeing
          Commercial Airplanes
          Mr. Naumer will speak on actual experiences and lessons
          learned from using SGML to exchange data between aircraft
          manufacturers and airlines.

13:30 SGML and Wire Services Chair: Seet Chern Hway, National
Computer Board

        o  Using SGML in LlVEwire - One Year Later

          Goh Yang Hwa, Nll Division, National Computer Board
          This presentation will describe the achievements and
          experiences gained thus far at using SGML in LlVEwire. A
          SGML-based template for creating and publishing
          information in LlVEwire will be elaborated upon,
          exemplified by the use of this template in putting
          LlVEwire documentation on-line. Finally, plans for future
          enhancements will be discussed.

        o  A Standards Based News Agency - Lessons Learned

          Tibor Tscheke, STEP
          Based on the standardization undertaken by the IPTC
          (International Press and Telecommunication
          Council)especially UTF (Universal Text Format/SGML) and
          CLIP (Common Linking Information Procedure)this talk will
          present the lessons learned through the implementation
          phase of such a standard based system. It will take into
          account the time and connectivity constraints as well as
          the heterogeneous environment, from capturing and
          processing to usage in newspapers and television. Is SGML
          suited for such an environment?

15:00 Break

15:30 The Pinnacles Component Information Standard, and SGML
Interchange Standard for Semiconductor Information Chair: Tommie
Usdin, ATLIS Consulting Croup

        o  Alfred Elkerbout, Philips Semiconductors

        o  Robert Yencha, National Semiconductor

     The Pinnacles Component Information Standard (PCIS) is an SGML
     application for the interchange of technical information (such
     as datasheets, databooks, and application notes) about
     semiconductor and electric component information. It was
     developed by the Pinnacles Group, a consortium of 5
     semi-conductor manufacturers. In this overview of the PCIS,
     members of the Pinnacles Group and one of the SGML developers
     of the draft standard will discuss the goals of the PCIS, the
     process of developing it, the major aspects of the SGML
     architecture, the current state of development and
     implementation, and the future of the PCIS.

17:00 Exhibits and Reception

19:00 Dinner

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Wednesday, 25 October * SGML Asia-Pacific '95 Conference

9:00 SGML and Internet Publishing Chair: Nick Carr, Allette Systems

        o  Jeff Suttor, Passage

        o  Tim Bray, OpenText Corporation

10:00 SGML Applications Chair: Lani Hajagos, Frame Technologies

        o  Flexible Information Delivery: Authoring and Publishing
          Issues

          Lani Hajagos, Frame Technologies
          SGML enables flexible information delivery. But preparing
          information so that it can be effectively delivered in
          multiple presentations on multiple media to multiple
          audiences is very different from our current models of
          information authoring. This presentation and panel will
          explore these types of issues.

        o  A Network-Based SGML/Hytime Document Management System

          Robert Lai, Information Technology Research Center,
          Yuan-Ze Institute of Technology
          This presentation will discuss a network-based multimedia
          document management system which uses the SGML/HyTime as
          the data model and interchange format. The development and
          implementation of a prototype system in which interactive
          multimedia documents can be stored and retrieved over
          networks will be outlined.

11:00 Break

11:30 SGML Applications (continued)

        o  The Use of SGML to Find Links in Multimedia Manuals

          Marco Meli, Saidec and Frederik Coeck, Alcatel
          This presentation will discuss a multimedia project for
          the telecom industry which uses SGML as a tool to find
          links in a multimedia manual. It outlines when SGML is
          useful and when it is not.

        o  Blending Hypermedia and SGML

          John Robertson, University of Technology, Sydney and Hans
          Klok, Delft University of Technology
          This presentation will discuss the current approaches to
          hypermedia authoring and how these techniques can be
          incorporated into the construction process for SGML
          databases. In particular, the paper will discuss the
          development of specialized tools and methodologies to
          address the blending of hypermedia and SGML.

12:30 Lunch

13:30 Closing Keynote: The Evolution of Electronic Publishing

     John McFadden, President, Exoterica
     Structured documents lie on a natural progression from lead
     type to rich information databases. Mr. McFadden will present
     an economic model which attempts to explain the evolution of
     organization and the market place through the various forms of
     paper and electronic delivery.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

For further information on the SGML Asia-Pacific '95 Conference
contact:

   +  United States Joy Blake Graphic Communications Association
     Phone: (1) 703 519-8177
     Fax: (1) 703 548-2867
     Email: Sgml95@aol.com

   +  Japan & North Asia
     Robin Masson - Uniscope
     Phone: (81) 33 946 7611
     Fax: (81) 33 946 8082
     Email: ram@uniscope.com

   +  Singapore and Central Asia
     Dr. Tan Eng Siong
     National Computer Board
     Phone: (65) 770-5992
     Fax: (65) 779-1827
     Email: engsiong@iti.gov.sg

   +  Australia and New Zealand
     Nick Carr - Allette Systems (Australia)
     Phone: (61)2 262 4777
     Fax: (61)2 262 4774
     Email: ncc@allette.com.au

REGISTER NOW!

Hotel Information:

Graphic Communications Association has reserved a block of rooms at
The Regent Hotel, 1 Cuscaden Road, Singapore. The hotel is located
adjacent to the city's shopping and entertainment area and a few
minutes from the city's business district. GCA has negotiated a
special rate of S$200 single/double and S$340 for executive suites.
Contact the hotel directly at (65) 739-3017 or Fax at (65) 7388931
and identify yourself as a Graphic Communications Association SGML
Asia Pacific Conference registrant to qualify for this reduced rate.
Make reservations by 1 October, 1995. After this date, space can not
be guaranteed.

Exhibitor Information

To reserve space in the table top exhibition contact; Joy Blake
Graphic Communications Association Phone: (1) 703 519-8177 Fax: (1)
703 548-2867. Email: Sgml95@aol.com

Registration Information

Complete this registration form and return this to CGA. Make
necessary reservations with the hotel. All fees, check and/or credit
card information must accompany registration.

     Mail to: GCA, 100 Daingerfield Rd
     Alexandria, VA 22314-2888 USA
     Phone: (1) 703 519-8167

OR, for faster processing, fax your registration to

     Fax: (1) 703 548-2867.

Conference Registration Fees

Regular fees:

    1st Registrant      US $850
    *2nd Registrant     US $650
    *3rd Registrant     US $450

GCA Member Discount Rates:

    1st Registrant      US $700
    *2nd Registrant     US $550
    *3rd Registrant     US $450

* same company, same address

Tutorial Fees

Tutorials are optional, registration fees are not included in the
conference fee. Tutorials are held on 22 October 1995.

                                                    GCA mem   Non GCA
 9:00-12:00 Introduction to SGML Business           US $95    US $125
13:00-17:00 Introduction to SGML. Technical Issues  US $95    US $125
 9:00-17:00 The Nuts and bolts of HyTime            US $150   US $195
 9:00-17:00 ABC's of DSSSL                          US $150   US $195
 9:00-17:00 HTML and Internet Publishing            US $150   US $195

____________________________________________________________
Name as it will appear on badge (please underline family name)

____________________________________________________________
Title

____________________________________________________________
Organization

____________________________________________________________
Address

____________________________________________________________
Post code/Zip Country

____________________________________________________________
Telephone FAX

Payment Information:

   +  Check enclosed made payable to GCA in US funds only
   +  visa
   +  Mastercard
   +  American Express
   +  International Money Order in US Dollars

Credit Card Information:

__________________________________________________
Account Number: Exp. Date

__________________________________________________
Name On Card

__________________________________________________
Signature Date

For International Monetary Transactions:

     Bank: Crestar Bank
     7818 Purham Rd., Richmond, VA 23294
     acct.# 202289818
     Bank ABA # 051000020
     Printing Industries of America, Inc.

To cancel:

For full or partial refund, cancellation must be received in writing
or by fax before 12:00 Noon (US EDT) on Friday, 13 October 1995.

         --------------------------------------------------
          For further query and feedback, please direct to:

                 Tan Eng Siong  (engsiong@iti.gov.sg)
                  Information Technology Institute
                        11 Science Park Road
                     Singapore Science Park II
                          Singapore 117685
                         Tel : (65) 770 5992
                        Fax : (65) 779 1827

         --------------------------------------------------





-- 
TAN Eng Siong (PhD) | Information Technology Institute
engsiong@iti.gov.sg | 11 Science Park Road
Ph : (65)770-5992   | Singapore Science Park II
Fax: (65)779-1827   | Singapore 0511, Republic of Singapore
</message>
<message id="<43pelm$n7a@zeus.tcp.co.uk>" date="3020038545" seqno="10799">
From: huk_eas@tcp.co.uk (Howard Technical Information)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: AECMA 1000D -- on/offline information?
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 03:35:45 GMT
Organization: Total Connectivity Providers - Internet access for the UK
Message-ID: <43pelm$n7a@zeus.tcp.co.uk>

I've been asked to look into the nuts & bolts of AECMA 1000D for one
of our customers.  I haven't managed to find anything on-line so far,
can anyone point me at appropriate information, either on- or
off-line?

Many thanks in advance,

Nick Barron
IT Supervisor

</message>
<message id="<jdmDF8rut.F51@netcom.com>" date="3020652676" seqno="10800">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: jdm@netcom.com (James D. Murray)
Subject: Brief (MS-DOS editor) macros for SGML?
Message-ID: \<jdmDF8rut.F51@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 06:11:16 GMT
Sender: jdm@netcom6.netcom.com

Has anybody bothered to write a set of Brief 3.1 macros for using SGML?
It would save me time learning Emacs and it's SGML macros.

Thanks.

--

James D. Murray  POB 70			Tel: 714.288.0141
jdm@netcom.com   Orange, CA 92666 USA	Fax: 714.832.9924

Maintainer of the Graphics File Formats FAQ on comp.graphics and
coauthor of the O'Reilly book "Encyclopedia of Graphics File Formats".

"I'm not only an INTJ, I'm smug about it!"
</message>
<message id="<9509210857.AA19310@jytko.jyu.fi>" date="3020662642" seqno="10801">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: Katri Kauppinen \<jytrio@cs.jyu.fi>
Message-ID: <9509210857.AA19310@jytko.jyu.fi>
Subject: Table of contents and subdocuments
Date: 21 Sep 1995 10:57:22 +0200

Hello,

I have some documents for which I am writing DTDs. I have three problems
and I would be very grateful for all help.

First, all the documents have a common part of the structure. I would
prefere to write this common part only once, and then use it in every DTD.
The contents of these common elements are written in the first document and
then copied and modified in the others. However, both of the documents, the
original and the modified, must be saved. Could the SUBDOC be a solution?

Secondly, I would like to know what is the best way to define the table of
contents in DTD. The purpose is to generate the actual table of contents as
automatically as possible. An other goal is to take advantage of the
HyTime-standard and define links from the table of contents to the each
chapter.

Thirdly, in the documents appear emphasizing words and references to other
documents among the normal text. I would like to know if the next way is
suitable for define that:

(a)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA)  +(emphasizing, reference) >
      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

I was also thinking to do this by the next two ways. The b-solution isn't
very recommended, at least by the books. The alternative c isn't very nice
either, because the writer must always choose the text-tag before writing
the normal text.

(b)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA | emphasizing | reference)+ >
      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

(c)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (text | emphasizing | reference)+ >
      \<!ELEMENT text - - (#PCDATA) >
      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

Could you please give examles of the solutions?

Thanks!

Katri Kauppinen
</message>
<message id="<43q741$khr@lo-fan.jpl.nasa.gov>" date="3020627521" seqno="10802">
From: Mike O'Neal \<michael.c.oneal@jpl.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: DTDs for policies and procedures
Date: 20 Sep 1995 23:12:01 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena
Message-ID: <43q741$khr@lo-fan.jpl.nasa.gov>



At the Jet Propulsion Lab, we are embarking on a program to convert several volumes 
or three ring notebooks full of policies and procedures into an organized on-line
user friendly accessable system.  We would also like to put a little structural
consistency on them while we are at it.

Does anyone out there have any experience with writing DTDs for these kinds 
of documents?

If so, I would like to hear from you.
Thanks

Mike O'Neal
Jet Propulsion Lab 

michael.c.oneal@jpl.nasa.gov



</message>
<message id="<43qke6$s97@brighton.openmarket.com>" date="3020641158" seqno="10803">
From: Mike Carifio \<carifio@OpenMarket.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Are DTD considered strict?
Date: 21 Sep 1995 02:59:18 GMT
Organization: OpenMarket, Inc
Message-ID: <43qke6$s97@brighton.openmarket.com>

According to some specs that I've recently read, HTML is an instance of
an SGML DTD with an associated public specification in the \<!doctype ...>
tag. Likewise, several commercial ventures have added extensions to HTML,
such as \<blink> or \<embed>. If I were to use, say \<blink> in my HTML V2
document, does that mean I really don't have the right to tag the document
(say) \<!doctype HTML V2 blah blah> (I not exactly sure of the syntax).

Is there an SGML "pure" method for communicating my own private extensions
to a public DTD? Seems like that's what a "doctype declaration subset" is
for. If I'm getting this all right, then I would have to add a 'blink' element
to the \<!doctype html ...> for it to be legit SGML.

Yeah. A newbie question.

</message>
<message id="<J.Endersby.335.000EA9EE@UNSW.EDU.AU>" date="3020683183" seqno="10804">
From: J.Endersby@UNSW.EDU.AU (Jim Endersby)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Corel Ventura SGML
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:39:43
Organization: The University of New South Wales
Message-ID: \<J.Endersby.335.000EA9EE@UNSW.EDU.AU>
References: <43lhaj$go9@hemuli.tte.vtt.fi>

In article <43lhaj$go9@hemuli.tte.vtt.fi> Kimmo Elovainio \<kelo> writes:

>I have heard that Corel will quite soon release the Ventura SGML publishing
>tool. Has anybody any new information about that?
>Thanks in advance!!

There are release notes for Ventura 6 at

www.corel.ca



Jim Endersby

Typography Editor, Desktop Magazine
and
Publications Officer, The University of New South Wales, Sydney, Australia
</message>
<message id="<43r2l9$ekq@mis.cpc.ku.ac.th>" date="3020655721" seqno="10805">
From: s35mtv@cc2.cpe.ku.ac.th (Montri Viroontanawong)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: FAQ
Date: 21 Sep 1995 07:02:01 GMT
Organization: Kasetsart University InterNetNews Site
Message-ID: <43r2l9$ekq@mis.cpc.ku.ac.th>

	Please tell me about objective of SGML
						Thank You Very Much
						s35mtv@cc2.cpe.ku.ac.th

</message>
<message id="<43r2tg$emm@mis.cpc.ku.ac.th>" date="3020655984" seqno="10806">
From: s35mtv@cc2.cpe.ku.ac.th (Montri Viroontanawong)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML FAQ
Date: 21 Sep 1995 07:06:24 GMT
Organization: Kasetsart University InterNetNews Site
Message-ID: <43r2tg$emm@mis.cpc.ku.ac.th>


</message>
<message id="<43otg6$2rd@news.xs4all.nl>" date="3020584902" seqno="10807">
From: jang@xs4all.nl (Jan Grootenhuis)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HTML Viewer
Date: 20 Sep 1995 11:21:42 GMT
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
Message-ID: <43otg6$2rd@news.xs4all.nl>
References: \<DF44Cw.6MK@contex.com>

Mike Peterson \<mikep@contex.com> writes:

>Does anyone know of a public domain X-Windows HTML viewer that could be used as
>a simple online help viewer for local files?

>I know I can view local files with Netscape, but I was hoping for a simple
>interface (no Web menus or buttons) that could be linked to an application.

Use Preferences ... to get rid of menus and buttons!

Cheers,
--
Jan Grootenhuis    Kralenbeek 1873    1104 KJ  AMSTERDAM    The Netherlands 
Tel/fax (+31)20-699.89.66   Internet jang@xs4all.nl


</message>
<message id="<43n8u0$act@mojo.eng.umd.edu>" date="3020531072" seqno="10808">
From: "Charles B. Robey" \<chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HTML Viewer
Date: 19 Sep 1995 20:24:32 GMT
Organization: Project GLUE, University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Message-ID: <43n8u0$act@mojo.eng.umd.edu>
References: \<DF44Cw.6MK@contex.com>

Mike Peterson (mikep@contex.com) wrote:
: Does anyone know of a public domain X-Windows HTML viewer that could be used as
: a simple online help viewer for local files?

: I know I can view local files with Netscape, but I was hoping for a simple
: interface (no Web menus or buttons) that could be linked to an application.
: -- 
: Mike Peterson

There's a list, of which the first that comes to mind is chimera,
available (I think) from ftp.cs.unlv.edu.

--
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<9509212231.AA11067@fly.hiwaay.net>" date="3020711491" seqno="10809">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Date: 21 Sep 1995 17:31:31 -0500
Message-ID: <9509212231.AA11067@fly.hiwaay.net>
From: Len Bullard \<cbullard@hiwaay.net>
Subject: IETF Draft for SGML Catalog Exchange

Those of you who are interested in SGML and its particular application on
the Internet are *STRONGLY* encouraged to review the following IETF draft:

ftp://ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mimesgml-exch-00.txt

The implications of the mechanisms proposed by EBT, Inc., will be with us
for a while if adopted.  Since they essentially replicate information
already within an ISO 8879-conforming SGML document, and add to them
constraints peculiar to Internet applications, they should be a topic of
earnest discussion on CTS.

Len Bullard
</message>
<message id="<43rsmr$cj2@hopper.acm.org>" date="3020682395" seqno="10810">
From: murray@ACM.ORG (GERRY MURRAY)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Brief (MS-DOS editor) macros for SGML?
Date: 21 Sep 1995 14:26:35 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <43rsmr$cj2@hopper.acm.org>
References: \<jdmDF8rut.F51@netcom.com>
Reply-To: murray@ACM.ORG

In article \<jdmDF8rut.F51@netcom.com>, jdm@netcom.com (James D. Murray) writes:
>Has anybody bothered to write a set of Brief 3.1 macros for using SGML?
>It would save me time learning Emacs and it's SGML macros.
>
>Thanks.
>
>--
>
>James D. Murray  POB 70			Tel: 714.288.0141
>jdm@netcom.com   Orange, CA 92666 USA	Fax: 714.832.9924
>
>Maintainer of the Graphics File Formats FAQ on comp.graphics and
>coauthor of the O'Reilly book "Encyclopedia of Graphics File Formats".
>
>"I'm not only an INTJ, I'm smug about it!"




BRIEF Rooles!

:-)  

...have used BRIEF since way back when ....swear by it! ...don't have
any SGML macros written (.cm) or keyboard (.km) (Sorry!) ....if you
do discover any ...please lemme know (or post here) 

TIA

Gerry

P.S.   ABSOLUTELY LOVED the "Encyclopedia of Graphic File Formats" ---
       used it many many times ...especially when our vendor proposed
       using .GIF files as their 'solution' to our database/composition
       requirements --- (ugh!) --- I KNEW .tif was our boy -- and 
       used the publication to back up my copious arguments!
       WORKED ! ...and it has (since) proven to the RIGHT decision!

:-))



</message>
<message id="<43s5k9$l6s@crl2.crl.com>" date="3020691529" seqno="10811">
From: jenglish@crl.com (Joe English)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Are DTD considered strict?
Date: 21 Sep 1995 09:58:49 -0700
Organization: Mentally ill venomous purists with strange emotional drives
Message-ID: <43s5k9$l6s@crl2.crl.com>
References: <43qke6$s97@brighton.openmarket.com>

Mike Carifio  \<carifio@OpenMarket.com> wrote:
>According to some specs that I've recently read, HTML is an instance of
>an SGML DTD with an associated public specification in the \<!doctype ...>
>tag. Likewise, several commercial ventures have added extensions to HTML,
>such as \<blink> or \<embed>. If I were to use, say \<blink> in my HTML V2
>document, does that mean I really don't have the right to tag the document
>(say) \<!doctype HTML V2 blah blah> (I not exactly sure of the syntax).

That's more or less correct.

The right syntax for the document type declaration is:

	\<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">

(BTW, this is called a "markup declaration", not a "tag".  Common mistake.)


>Is there an SGML "pure" method for communicating my own private extensions
>to a public DTD? Seems like that's what a "doctype declaration subset" is
>for.

It depends on the DTD.  HTML 2.0 was not really designed to
support local extensions, so in this particular case, no.

You could do something like:

	\<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN"
	[
	    \<!-- this part, between "[" and "]", is the
		 "internal subset" of the DTD.
	    -->
	    \<!-- define a new element: -->
	    \<!ELEMENT BLINK - - (#PCDATA)>
	]>
	\<html> ... \</html>

to define a BLINK element, but there is no easy way to specify
*where the new element may appear*.  To do that, it's necessary
to modify the declarations of all the other elements where you
want \<BLINK> to be legal.  In other words, you can define new
element types, but you can't use them in the document.  (Again,
this only applies to HTML 2.0; there are other DTDs which *are*
designed to support this sort of thing.  This is usually accomplished
by providing parameter entity "hooks" that can be overriden 
in the internal subset.)



--Joe English

  jenglish@crl.com
</message>
<message id="<43s6bc$cvc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>" date="3020692268" seqno="10812">
From: dgdillaman@aol.com (Don G Dillaman)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: DTDs for Plays/Poems/Drama
Date: 21 Sep 1995 13:11:08 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <43s6bc$cvc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

I have been assigned the task of developing DTDs that can be used to
abstract/describe/critique plays, poems and other dramatic works.  

I would appreciate any help in pointing me to anyone doing work in this
area or any public domain DTDs in this or related areas. 

Thanks in advance.
Don Dillaman
</message>
<message id="<NEWTNews.811708729.17122.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com>" date="3020697311" seqno="10813">
From: mmorriso@plato.bdt.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: IBM BookMaster, EBT DynaText
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 11:35:11 PDT
Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA
Message-ID: \<NEWTNews.811708729.17122.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com>


We have been working for several months on SGML online
documentation using EBT's DynaText as the viewer.  We
had felt that this was one of the best SGML viewers on
the market for online documentation.

We are now, belatedly, getting a push from another division
to use IBM BookMaster for the online documentation, as
the other division already has that in place.  At some
point in the future IBM BookMaster is supposed to have an
SGML DTD.

We would like to hear from anyone who has experience in
online documentation on one or both platforms about your
experiences and preferences.


</message>
<message id="<43scgo$sfq@ulowell.uml.edu>" date="3020698584" seqno="10814">
From: lrutledg@cs.uml.edu (Lloyd Rutledge)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Looking for HyTime LINK examples (Panorama)
Date: 21 Sep 1995 18:56:24 GMT
Organization: UMass-Lowell Computer Science
Message-ID: <43scgo$sfq@ulowell.uml.edu>
References: <43js24$h4a@naurouze.cert.fr>

Martin Hollender writes:

> I would like to study complex examples of HyTime Links
> (e.g. ilinks). Does anybody know where I can find such
> documents?
> SoftQuad Panorama has some HyTime support, so I would be
> very interested in URLs to demonstrate the HyTime hyperlinking 
> capabilities of Panorama.

My lab recent published an article on using ilinks to represent HTML
anchors in legacy HTML documents.  This article is based on a posting
I made to this group last summer.  This article is "Applying HyTime to
HTML" and is published in the proceedings of the IASTED Distributed
Multimedia Systems and Applications Conference held in August.  A
postscript of the article is available at URL
ftp://imgftp.uml.edu/pub/hytime/IASTED_95.ps.gz.

Lloyd


--
Lloyd Rutledge
Distributed Multimedia Systems Laboratory   
Department of Computer Science            vox: +1 508-934-3554
University of Massachusetts - Lowell      fax: +1 508-452-4298
One University Avenue                     net: lrutledg@cs.uml.edu
Lowell, Massachusetts 01854-2881 USA      web: http://www.uml.edu/~lrutledg/

</message>
<message id="<43t3ft$fkb@doc.cc.utexas.edu>" date="3020722109" seqno="10815">
From: churchyh@doc.cc.utexas.edu (Henry Churchyard)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: HTML/SGML element content model question
Date: 21 Sep 1995 20:28:29 -0500
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <43t3ft$fkb@doc.cc.utexas.edu>

While running a page through the sgmls-based validator service at
www.hal.com, I was surprised to find that the following is bad SGML:

\<ADDRESS>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>   \<P>xxxxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\<ADDRESS>
                            ^^^  
                           The whitespace causes an error

Instead you have to do the following:

\<ADDRESS>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\<ADDRESS>

This problem only seems to crop up in the ADDRESS element; does anyone
know why?

Here's the relevant portion of the HTML 2.0 DTD:

	\<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - (%text|P)*>

	\<!ENTITY % text "#PCDATA | A | IMG | BR | %phrase | %font">

(The P element end-tag is minimizable.)


--%!PS-Adobe
/M{rmoveto}def/R{rlineto}def 10 10 scale 2/Times-Roman findfont 2 scalefont
setfont 12 45 moveto 0 5 R 4 -1 M 5.5 0 R/C{currentpoint}def C 3 sub 3 90 0
arcn 0 -6 R 7.54 10.28 M 2.7067 -9.28 R -5.6333 0 R 9.8867 8 M 7 0 R%Shalom
setlinewidth 0 -9 R -6 4 M 0 -4 R -31 -5 M C stroke moveto%   Austin, Texas
     (Henry Churchyard http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh)     show showpage
</message>
<message id="<43t2s0$8b1@mojo.eng.umd.edu>" date="3020721472" seqno="10816">
From: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Charles B. Robey)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: DSSSL information?
Date: 22 Sep 1995 01:17:52 GMT
Organization: Project GLUE, University of Maryland, College Park, MD
Message-ID: <43t2s0$8b1@mojo.eng.umd.edu>

Does anyone know where I might pick up more information on the DSSSL
specification, and how the process is going?  I have the spec itself,
which I find interesting, I was wondering if there was any particular
place to go, where I might find more on the current direction.

Did I say interesting?  I meant fascinating.

--
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
</message>
<message id="<43t60l$150@crl2.crl.com>" date="3020724693" seqno="10817">
From: jenglish@crl.com (Joe English)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: HTML/SGML element content model question
Date: 21 Sep 1995 19:11:33 -0700
Organization: Mentally ill venomous purists with strange emotional drives
Message-ID: <43t60l$150@crl2.crl.com>
References: <43t3ft$fkb@doc.cc.utexas.edu>

Henry Churchyard \<churchyh@doc.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:
>While running a page through the sgmls-based validator service at
>www.hal.com, I was surprised to find that the following is bad SGML:
>
>\<ADDRESS>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>   \<P>xxxxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\<ADDRESS>
>                            ^^^  
>                           The whitespace causes an error

I just tested this with the currrent DTD, and the
space between paragraphs did not cause an error.
(The second \<ADDRESS> start-tag did, but I assume
that was a typo.)

>Instead you have to do the following:
>
>\<ADDRESS>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\<ADDRESS>
>
>This problem only seems to crop up in the ADDRESS element; does anyone
>know why?
>
>Here's the relevant portion of the HTML 2.0 DTD:
>	\<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - (%text|P)*>
>	\<!ENTITY % text "#PCDATA | A | IMG | BR | %phrase | %font">

Looks fine to me.

It may be that the HAL validator is using an out-of-date
(*very* out-of-date) copy of the HTML 2 DTD; earlier
versions may have had a problem with pernicious mixed content [*]. 

The HTML *3* DTD is known to have plenty of problems  
of this nature, especially in "Strict" mode.   In fact, 
I checked with the HAL validator and did not encounter
this error at the "level 2", but it did show up under the
"level 3" setting.

Maybe you were using the HTML 3 DTD?  (Which, BTW, I do
not recommend, for this and other reasons.)



--Joe English

  jenglish@crl.com


[*] Basically this means that elements are declared with mixed
content but without allowing #PCDATA everywhere; in such elements,
whitespace is (unintuitively) interpreted as data even where data 
is not legal.  This is a well-known SGML pitfall.

</message>
<message id="<43ta20$7mi@shellx.best.com>" date="3020728832" seqno="10818">
From: ftmexpat@shell1.best.com (Frank McNeil)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: HTML/SGML element content model question
Followup-To: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Date: 22 Sep 1995 03:20:32 GMT
Organization: Best Internet Communications
Message-ID: <43ta20$7mi@shellx.best.com>
References: <43t3ft$fkb@doc.cc.utexas.edu>

Henry Churchyard (churchyh@doc.cc.utexas.edu) wrote:
: While running a page through the sgmls-based validator service at
: www.hal.com, I was surprised to find that the following is bad SGML:

: \<ADDRESS>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>   \<P>xxxxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\<ADDRESS>
:                             ^^^  
:                            The whitespace causes an error

: Instead you have to do the following:

: \<ADDRESS>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\<ADDRESS>


: This problem only seems to crop up in the ADDRESS element; does anyone
: know why?

: Here's the relevant portion of the HTML 2.0 DTD:

: 	\<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - (%text|P)*>

: 	\<!ENTITY % text "#PCDATA | A | IMG | BR | %phrase | %font">

: (The P element end-tag is minimizable.)


My first thought is that the validator used the March HTML 3.0 DTD 

which I changed in the DTD I usually use:

//3. Replaced ADDRESS mixed content model with the one from HTML v1.29


I just ran nsgml.exe on two files 

This one worked O.K. since it used the standard version 1.29 HTML.DTD 

\<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC  "-//IETF//DTD HTML //EN" >
\<title>\</title>

\<ADDRESS>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>   \<P>xxxxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\</ADDRESS>


However this one didn't because the DOCTYPE tells it to use the March
HTML 3.0 DTD.

\<!DOCTYPE HTML "-//IETF//DTD HTML 3.0//EN"  >
\<title>\</title>

\<ADDRESS>\<P>xxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>   \<P>xxxxxxxxxxxxxx\</P>\</ADDRESS>

as this snapshot shows.

D:\\SP>sp address3.htm
nsgmls -s -m d:\\sp\\catalog  address3.htm
address3.htm:1:16:E: delimiter `"' invalid: only delimiter `>', delimiter `[',
PUBLIC', `SYSTEM' and parameter separators are allowed
address3.htm:1:16:E: cannot continue because of previous errors

I'm glad this topic will get more discussion and the above is helpful
to someone.

However I really just want to say THANKS for your software.

I rely on htmlchek.pl to style check all my files and dehtml.pl so I can
spell-check and catch _missing_ whitespace.

I also use nsgmls.exe for more control, but htmlchek.pl cleans them up.
htmlchek.pl is reliable in my experience.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

frank
</message>
<message id="<43teo8$b61$2@mhade.production.compuserve.com>" date="3020733640" seqno="10819">
From: Normand Rivard <76336.1560@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: One more opinion on Microsoft SGML Author for Word
Date: 22 Sep 1995 04:40:40 GMT
Organization: CompuServe, Inc. (1-800-689-0736)
Message-ID: <43teo8$b61$2@mhade.production.compuserve.com>
References: <455334914wnr@infonol.demon.co.uk>

Adding 16 Mb$$$ to accelerat load and save?  I think it's better to 
put that money into a good SGML editor like Author/Editor, InContext
or EditTime.

Normand Rivard
</message>
<message id="<43tg4k$cs7@shellx.best.com>" date="3020735060" seqno="10820">
From: ftmexpat@shell1.best.com (Frank McNeil)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Can one DTD call the version 1.29 HTML.DTD?
Followup-To: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Date: 22 Sep 1995 05:04:20 GMT
Organization: Best Internet Communications
Message-ID: <43tg4k$cs7@shellx.best.com>
References: <43t3ft$fkb@doc.cc.utexas.edu> <43t60l$150@crl2.crl.com>

This is help request.  TIA

I use nsgmls.exe as a validator and I want to merge a DTD with the
HTML.DTD and similar things.

Joe English (jenglish@crl.com) wrote:
: Henry Churchyard \<churchyh@doc.cc.utexas.edu> wrote:

: Maybe you were using the HTML 3 DTD?  (Which, BTW, I do
: not recommend, for this and other reasons.)
                      [*] see below.

  Well I wish I knew what the reasons were.  The DTD I use is based on
it.  I've simply hacked it to do what I want.  There were to many
attributes to add to standard version 1.29 for HTML 2.0.

  However, I was wondering; could I use a simple DTD that included all
my changes and include the standard version 1.29 or the March 95 HTML
3.0 DTD as the last entity in the file?  Since each of my hacks has to
be documented at the beginning of the file this hacking is time
consuming.  Oh, I realize or assume that by using two files, I'd have
the situation where %text might have to be defined in the first DTD
used in the following example even thoug its in the second DTD. [?]

\<!-- ftm End-tag minimization is nolonger allowed -->
\<!ELEMENT P     - - (%text|CENTER)+>

//I usually don't use CENTER that way and is the real reason
//for this quesion.  

  What I really want soon (and therefore will try) is to make minor
modifications to the DTD I usually use so I can validate a few few files
that have some HTML that I usually don't use.
  Since I change that DTD every week I want the specialized DTD that
uses the CENTER element to center text in the P element, to use all of
my regular DTD.

  I hope the question and last statement is clear.  From reading the
HTML DTD I get the idea that the first entity read, is the first
entity processed [1].  Is it that simple?  Will it work for things like
\<!ELEMENT BODY O O %body.content> also?


Thanks for any comments or help anyone gives.  Please feel free to refer
me to specific sections of the Handbook or something else.


TIA,

frank

Frank McNeil
ftmexpat@best.com


Note 1:

\<!ENTITY % HTML.Recommended "INCLUDE"

\<![ %HTML.Recommended [  \<!ENTITY % body.content "(%heading|%block|HR|ADDRESS|IMG)*"
  -- \<h1>Heading\</h1>
     \<p>Text ...
    is preferred to
     \<h1>Heading\</h1>
     Text ...
  -->
\]]>

\<!ENTITY % body.content "(%heading | %text | %block |
         HR | ADDRESS)*">






: [*] Basically this means that elements are declared with mixed
: content but without allowing #PCDATA everywhere; in such elements,
: whitespace is (unintuitively) interpreted as data even where data 
: is not legal.  This is a well-known SGML pitfall.

</message>
<message id="<43tg8u$hm2@doc.cc.utexas.edu>" date="3020735198" seqno="10821">
From: churchyh@doc.cc.utexas.edu (Henry Churchyard)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: HTML/SGML element content model question
Date: 22 Sep 1995 00:06:38 -0500
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas
Message-ID: <43tg8u$hm2@doc.cc.utexas.edu>
References: <43t3ft$fkb@doc.cc.utexas.edu> <43t60l$150@crl2.crl.com>

In article <43t60l$150@crl2.crl.com>, Joe English \<jenglish@crl.com> wrote:
>I checked with the HAL validator and did not encounter
>this error at the "level 2", but it did show up under the
>"level 3" setting.

You're right, I was actually checking on level 3.  *[Mild blush]*


>Maybe you were using the HTML 3 DTD?  (Which, BTW, I do
>not recommend, for this and other reasons.)

As I now remember, I had switched over from level 2 to level 3 to
avoid error messages on each and every \<IMG WIDTH=> and \<IMG HEIGHT=>
attribute.

--
They say his name is Henry, a  || Henry Churchyard churchyh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
proof how unequally the gifts  ||       http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~churchh
of fortune are bestowed. -- Jane Austen, letter of October 14th, 1813.
</message>
<message id="<43trji$lc9@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>" date="3020746802" seqno="10822">
From: "Jörn Erbguth" \<juris1@saarlink.de>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: FOSI-Specification
Date: 22 Sep 1995 08:20:02 GMT
Organization: juris GmbH
Message-ID: <43trji$lc9@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>

Hello,
I am using the Arbortext Adept-Editor. This Editor uses the CALS-FOSI
Specification to define the format of your Document on the screen as
well as on paper. I have gotten a DTD which describes the structure of
a valid FOSI, but I have not found any information about the semantics
of a FOSI-definition. The manual of the Adept-Editor only lists some
introductory information.
Can anyone recommend a book or other source for information about FOSI
writing? Shall I write to the DoD for the specification of MIL-M-28001?

Thanx a lot

Jörn
-- 
Joern Erbguth, juris GmbH - The legal database in Germany
EMail: juris1@saarlink.de  Phone: +49 681 5866-188  Fax: -239
Snail: juris GmbH, Gutenbergstrasse 23, 66117 Saarbruecken
Home: Neustr. 14, 66115 Saarbruecken  Phone: +49 681 4170278

</message>
<message id="<43uac6$ie3@argo.hks.com>" date="3020761926" seqno="10823">
From: jeffrey@hks.com (Glenda Jeffrey)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: FOSI-Specification
Date: 22 Sep 1995 12:32:06 GMT
Organization: Hibbitt, Karlsson & Sorensen, Inc.
Message-ID: <43uac6$ie3@argo.hks.com>
References: <43trji$lc9@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>

Jörn Erbguth (juris1@saarlink.de) wrote:
: Can anyone recommend a book or other source for information about FOSI
: writing? Shall I write to the DoD for the specification of MIL-M-28001?

You will be very surprised to learn that Adept has a tremendous amount
of online help on FOSIs. They just don't bother to tell you that it's
there. If you get a copy of 28001, you'll find that the Adept online
help reproduces almost the whole document, and a bit more readably,
too.

If, OTOH, you still want to get a copy of 28001, you can FTP a 
PostScript copy of it from

  navysgml.dt.navy.mil

Look in /pub/28001/28001bps.zip. Be forewarned -- this is an extremely
long document (408 pages). The part you need is just appendix B,
pages 173 through 208. Also be forewarned that the index is off
by a few pages (unless they have corrected it since I got my copy).

28001 is not exactly a tutorial-type document.
You are going to do a fair amount of head-scratching before you'll
actually be able to write a FOSI. I'd recommend taking a FOSI that
somebody else wrote and trying to modify it before trying to write
your own. (I started with ArborText's "report" DTD and FOSI -- that's 
a fairly simple one.)

Good luck!
--
Glenda Jeffrey                                     Email: jeffrey@hks.com
Hibbitt, Karlsson & Sorensen, Inc                  Phone: 401-727-4200
1080 Main St.                                      Fax:   401-727-4208 
Pawtucket, RI 02860
</message>
<message id="<43ubi3$l01@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3020763139" seqno="10824">
From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Are DTD considered strict?
Date: 22 Sep 1995 12:52:19 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
Message-ID: <43ubi3$l01@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>
References: <43qke6$s97@brighton.openmarket.com>
Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com

Mike Carifio (carifio@OpenMarket.com) wrote:
: According to some specs that I've recently read, HTML is an instance of
: an SGML DTD with an associated public specification in the \<!doctype ...>
: tag. Likewise, several commercial ventures have added extensions to HTML,

Nitpick to reduce terminology confusion:

\<!doctype ...> is correctly called a "declaration" rather than a "tag".

--
  Tad McClellan,      Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy)
                      email: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com
  Just be thankful we don't get all the government we pay for!
</message>
<message id="<Paul_Hermans-2209951525010001@protext.eunet.be>" date="3020768701" seqno="10825">
From: Paul_Hermans@protext.be (Paul Hermans)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: CONFERENCE SGML BELUX '95
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:25:01 +0100
Organization: Pro Text
Message-ID: \<Paul_Hermans-2209951525010001@protext.eunet.be>

2nd annual Conference on the practical use of SGML

A one day conference with no less than 9 SGML-professionals ready to share
their know-how and experience with you!

łPutting SGML to work˛

New developments and applications of the Standard Generalized Markup
Language (SGML).

€ Tips on authoring SGML documents with word processors. 
€ SGML or HTML? A look at their benefits and shortcomings.

Universitaire Instelling Antwerpen, Wilrijk, Belgium
Wednesday October 25th

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Conference Programme

08h30  09h00    Registration and coffee

09h00  09h10    Welcome
        Paul Hermans (SGML BeLux)

09h10  09h55    Documentation using SGML
        Dallas Powell (Novell)
        Some profound thoughts on the future of document computing and the role 
        of SGML herein.

09h55  10h40    Using SGML: the pain/gain ratio
        Pamela L. Gennusa (Database Publishing Systems Ltd)
        A careful examination, with practical examples, of the trade-offs one
        has to make when deciding to implement SGML .

10h40  11h10    Coffee and visit to exhibition

11h10  11h40    SGML used in the VUBIS-Antwerpen library network
        Jan Corthouts and Richard Philips (U.I.A.)
        A survey of the different projects of the library network, highlighting
        the main benefits of
        using SGML.

11h40  12h10    Delivering an integrated SGML solution
        in a corporate environment
        Steve Anderson (Rover)
        The story of how Rover integrated SGML editing tools with sophisticated
        repository software to
        better support the process of authoring and managing technical
        information.

12h10  12h40    Using SGML in Electronic Catalog Development
        Ellen Adams (IBM)
        A look at the four basic stages of an electronic purchasing service
        application and an overview
        of the SGML tools IBM used in building it.

12h40  14h00    Lunch and visit to exhibition

14h00  14h30    The Document Database: Relational,
Object Oriented or Hybrid?
        Michael J. McNarmara (Xyvision)
        A discussion of how the underlying architecture of a document management
        system should measure up to the demands of SGML-based electronic
        documents.

14h30  15h40    Authoring SGML documents with wordprocessors
        Jacques Deseyne (SEMA Group Belgium)
        A review of the advantages and drawbacks of the newly available tools
        for producing SGML documents using normal word processors.
        followed by demonstrations of:
        € WordPerfect SGML Edition (Novell)
        € Microsoft SGML Author (Microsoft)
        € Near & Far Author (Offis)

15h40  16h10    Coffee and visit to exhibition

16h10  17h10    Using SGML on the Web
        Hans Arents (KULeuven)
        A balanced view on the use of  SGML and/or HTML for Internet document
        engineering.
        followed by demonstrations of:
        € Internet Publisher (Novell)
        € Internet Assistant (Microsoft)
        € Panorama (Offis)
        € HoTMetaL Pro (Offis)
        € Cyberleaf (Interleaf)

17h10  17h20    Conclusion

17h20  18h00    Reception and visit to exhibition

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conference
Booking Details

Places are limited
There are only 120 places available. They will be assigned in order of
registration. So please make your reservation immediately. 

The Vendor Exhibition
Parallel to the Conference there is a vendor exhibition. To be seen on the
floor are products from: AIS, Exoterica, SoftQuad, EBT, Microstar,
Interleaf, SEMA, Microsoft, Xyvision, WordPerfect,...

When
Wednesday 25th October 1995
from 09h00 till 18h00
Registration starts at 8h30

Where
Universitaire Instelling Antwerpen
Universiteitsplein 1
Promotiezaal (Congrescentrum)
2610 Wilrijk

Conference fees
Members of SGML BeLux or of the International SGML Usersą Group: 4.000 Bef
Non-Members: 9.000 Bef
This fee includes your participation to the Conference, access to the
vendor exhibition, the lunch, the coffee breaks and your personal copy of
the Conference Proceedings (hardcopy as well as electronic).

How to make your reservation
Make your reservation by completing the registration form and returning it
before October 16th to:
KUL, Departement Elektrotechniek, Afd. TEO
SGML BeLux vzw/asbl, Bart Bauwens
Kardinaal Mercierlaan 94
3001  Leuven
Or fax to: 016/32 19 86

For more information
SGML BeLux, Bart Bauwens, 016/32 11 19


With the appreciated sponsorship of Novell
</message>
<message id="<TFB.95Sep22143427@scarp.ed.ac.uk>" date="3020765667" seqno="10826">
From: tfb@ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Are DTD considered strict?
Date: 22 Sep 1995 13:34:27 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh
Message-ID: \<TFB.95Sep22143427@scarp.ed.ac.uk>
References: <43qke6$s97@brighton.openmarket.com> <43s5k9$l6s@crl2.crl.com>
In-reply-to: jenglish@crl.com's message of 21 Sep 1995 09:58:49 -0700

* Joe English wrote:

> to define a BLINK element, but there is no easy way to specify
> *where the new element may appear*.  To do that, it's necessary
> to modify the declarations of all the other elements where you
> want \<BLINK> to be legal.  In other words, you can define new
> element types, but you can't use them in the document.  (Again,
> this only applies to HTML 2.0; there are other DTDs which *are*
> designed to support this sort of thing.  This is usually accomplished
> by providing parameter entity "hooks" that can be overriden 
> in the internal subset.)

I *think* that this does that, at least for the html 2 dtd that I
have: it has dragged a bit of the dtd into the subset, but it seems to
be OK (I'm never sure if forward refs to poarameter entities are
allowed, but they seem not to be, hence some of the entities in
there).

\<!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM
 [
  \<!ENTITY % netskape "BLINK" -- the blink tag, and any others needed -->
  \<!ENTITY % font " TT | B | I | %netskape " -- font defns changed from DTD,
   I suppose that BLINK is a `font' -->
  \<!ENTITY % phrase "EM | STRONG | CODE | SAMP | KBD | VAR | CITE "
   -- from dtd, needed to avoid forward refs -->
  \<!ENTITY % text "#PCDATA | A | IMG | BR | %phrase |
   %font" -- from dtd, needed to avoid forward refs -->
  \<!ELEMENT (%netskape) - - (%text)* -- define our extra tags -->
 ]>

\<html>
  \<head>
    \<title>\</title>
  \</head>
  \<body>
    \<p>
      \<blink>my eyes hurt\</blink>
  \</body>
\</html>

--tim
</message>
<message id="<Pine.HPP.3.91.950922162152.3004A-100000@aps1.wifa.uni-leipzig.de>" date="3020770695" seqno="10827">
From: Dirk Siebert \<siebert@aps1.wifa.uni-leipzig.de>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: What tools are available
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:58:15 +0200
Organization: Uni Leipzig
Message-ID: \<Pine.HPP.3.91.950922162152.3004A-100000@aps1.wifa.uni-leipzig.de>

  Hi,

  I need a way to present a fair amount of semi-structured information
(Well: There are several ways of indexing the material in question.) and
thought of using html. To satisfy the potential users requirements I had
probably to break the descriptions into pieces to be stored in a
(relational) database. If need arises I had to query the database and to 
convert the result(s) to html for display. One problem that came to my 
mind instantly: How to get the links to be followed from this page - the 
pages to go to do not exist yet but had to be compiled from the database 
as well...

  A colleague suggested to use SGML and an (object-oriented) SGML 
database. For the possiblity to define tags one could later query the 
database for. Unfortunately we lack the insight what tools (editors, 
browsers, databases) are available to:
- tag pages with minimal effort
- store tagged pages
- retrieve pages according to specified criteria

  Is it possible to restrict the values one could assign to a tag (Read: 
Are there tools that allow to set up forms with fields into which only
predefined fields can be entered?)
  Are there tools to support the retrieval of more or less related items 
by using terms of defined conceptual closeness? (I guess the last bit has 
nothing to do with SGML but there might someone...)

  Thanks in advance for any hints via the group or email
  dirk
</message>
<message id="<NEWTNews.811796021.5227.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com>" date="3020784744" seqno="10828">
From: mmorriso@plato.bdt.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: FOSI-Specification
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 11:52:24 PDT
Organization: Beckemeyer Development, Oakland CA
Message-ID: \<NEWTNews.811796021.5227.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com>
References: <43trji$lc9@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>


ArborText has a separate product called Document Architect,
which lets you compose your FOSI.  There is separate
documentation on this product and a one-week workshop
offered.  Contact your ArborText representative for
further information.

</message>
<message id="<43v8b5$ovj@paw.montana.com>" date="3020792613" seqno="10829">
From: kerscher@montana.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: IBM BookMaster, EBT DynaText
Date: 22 Sep 1995 21:03:33 GMT
Organization: Internet Connect Services
Message-ID: <43v8b5$ovj@paw.montana.com>
References: \<NEWTNews.811708729.17122.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com>
Reply-To: kerscher@montana.com@montana.com



Hello,

I have evaluated both Dynatext and BookManager for accessibility for
persons with disabilities. If you look at the Dynatext browser for
Windows, you will find that unless you  can use a mouse, you will
not be able to use Dynatext. The BookManager software has keyboard
alternatives to all (but one) mouse actions.. So, if you are using your
docs in a large company or if you deal with customers outside
your direct company, you may find that going with a completely
accessible browser is worth considering.

I believe that Build/SGML is out. This is available on a CD for
$1995. and this takes SGML from a variety of DTDS as input
and creates the .boo file. We have not used this yet,
but would love to hear more about it.

Hope this helps
George Kerscher, Research Fellow
Recording For the Blind & Dyslexic
kerscher@montana.com	

In \<NEWTNews.811708729.17122.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com>, mmorriso@plato.bdt.com writes:
>
>We have been working for several months on SGML online
>documentation using EBT's DynaText as the viewer.  We
>had felt that this was one of the best SGML viewers on
>the market for online documentation.
>
>We are now, belatedly, getting a push from another division
>to use IBM BookMaster for the online documentation, as
>the other division already has that in place.  At some
>point in the future IBM BookMaster is supposed to have an
>SGML DTD.
>
>We would like to hear from anyone who has experience in
>online documentation on one or both platforms about your
>experiences and preferences.
>

</message>
<message id="<1995Sep22.214427.9132@arbortext.com>" date="3020795067" seqno="10830">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: jmf@arbortext.com (John Ford)
Subject: Re: Opinions on Microsoft SGML Author for Word
Message-ID: <1995Sep22.214427.9132@arbortext.com>
Organization: ArborText, Inc. 1000 Victors Way Ann Arbor, Michigan 48108
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:44:27 GMT

Regarding the use of SMGL editing products, writer Kinney comments:

> 
> > b. I do not want them to have to write "in structure".  Too may 
> > "SGML Editors" (read - not Word Processors) force the author to 
> > write top-down.  There are many documents created from the 
> > inside out.  I recently completed work on an application that 
> > starts with a citation to a single court case; it expands to a 
> > document that can be published at up to 500 pages.  That 
> > citation is an inclusion at the very lowest level within the 
> > ultimate SGML structure.  My authors do not say, "ok, Chapter 
> > 1, what am I going to say?".  Like most research authors, their 
> > thoughts evoluve from a small concept and expand out.
> 

My personal experience is that SGML editing tools enhance one's ability 
to write inside-out.  And, although I happily work at ArborText, I am 
refering to many SGML editing tools I have seen, not just ArborText's.  

Virtually everything I write is inside-out: starting with the germ 
of an idea, then expanding upon it.  With an unstructured word processor, 
I would start writing on a blank page.  With an SGML editor, I would 
start writing in an empty data element.  Either way, I am free to 
simply start writing; the SGML editor does not mind that I've left 
empty data structures "above" my starting point.  

As I continue to write, the SGML editor's use of structure helps me 
manage the content more efficiently and effectively.  For example, I 
can instantly hide the contents of some structures while working on 
other content, which improves my focus.  I can also instantly see 
multiple views of the content at different levels of detail, which 
improves my ability to identify missing content.  

Having experienced the benefits of SGML editors first hand, even when 
writing inside-out, I would not choose to write anything of importance 
or complexity using an unstructured word processor.  


John Ford 
ArborText 
</message>
<message id="<43vvip$a1h@nimitz.fibr.net>" date="3020816308" seqno="10831">
From: dksand@txdirect.net (Dennis Sanders)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Table of contents and subdocuments
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 03:38:28 GMT
Organization: Fibrnet Internet Services
Message-ID: <43vvip$a1h@nimitz.fibr.net>
References: <9509210857.AA19310@jytko.jyu.fi>

Katri Kauppinen \<jytrio@cs.jyu.fi> wrote:

>First, all the documents have a common part of the structure. I would
>prefere to write this common part only once, and then use it in every DTD.
>The contents of these common elements are written in the first document and
>then copied and modified in the others. However, both of the documents, the
>original and the modified, must be saved. Could the SUBDOC be a solution?

The best solution would be to put all the common elements, entities,
etc into a separate file.  Then do an external reference in each one
of the DTDs that you are creating.  This way you have only one common
file to maintain.  When you make a change to the common file, it will
automatically update all the DTDs.  For example, if all of your common
elements, entities, etc were in a file called common.ent you would
place the following lines in the other DTDs:

\<!ENTITY  % common   SYSTEM "common.ent"   >
%common;

This would load the common elements, entities, etc at the location
that %common; is.

>Secondly, I would like to know what is the best way to define the table of
>contents in DTD. The purpose is to generate the actual table of contents as
>automatically as possible. An other goal is to take advantage of the
>HyTime-standard and define links from the table of contents to the each
>chapter.
The table of contents is generated by the application, not SGML.  If
you are using a program such as EBT's DynaText, SoftQuad's Explorer (I
think?), or Guide, etc.  The table of contents and the links are
automatically created.  You as the application creator have the
ability to tell the program which levels you want in the TOC.  You
could also add attributes to your elements to let the application know
which elements to include in the TOC i.e.:

\<!ELEMENT  title        (#PCDATA)                                >
\<!ATTLIST    title         tocentry      (yes|no)         "yes"  >
 
With this method, the author of the instance can determine which
titles he/she wants in the toc.

>Thirdly, in the documents appear emphasizing words and references to other
>documents among the normal text. I would like to know if the next way is
>suitable for define that:

>(a)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA)  +(emphasizing, reference) >
>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

>I was also thinking to do this by the next two ways. The b-solution isn't
>very recommended, at least by the books. The alternative c isn't very nice
>either, because the writer must always choose the text-tag before writing
>the normal text.

>(b)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA | emphasizing | reference)+ >
>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

>(c)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (text | emphasizing | reference)+ >
>      \<!ELEMENT text - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

I vote for choice (a), but you need to add some attributes to the
reference and emphasizing elements.  That way you can identify the
type of emphasis and where the reference is pointing to.
Additionally, you seem to want to remove as much tagging as possible
for your authors, so try to shorten the element names.  i.e.:

\<!ELEMENT 	para 	- - 	(#PCDATA)  	+(emp, extref)	>
\<!ELEMENT 	emp 	- - 	(#PCDATA) 			>
\<!ATTLIST	emp	style	(bold | italic | underline)	"bold"
>
\<!ELEMENT 	extref 	- - 	(#PCDATA) 			>
\<!ATTLIST	extref	extdoc		CDATA	#REQUIRED
			extdocid	CDATA	#IMPLIED	>

With this method, you tell your application program how to handle the
emp and extref elements by using the attributes to style the emphasis,
and the extdoc, and extdocid to point to the external document, and
the id within the document that you want the link to jump to.  Your
application needs to know how to find the document also.  It depends
on the application as to how you accomplish this.

	|\\/\\/\\/|               Dennis K. Sanders                 
	|          |                 dksand@txdirect.net             
	|     O O)                 dksande@mail.aia.af.mil             
	 C      _)                         
	  | ,___|                                          
	  |   /    Hey Man, I didn't do it!!!!!!       


</message>
<message id="<43v5tr$aj9@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>" date="3020790139" seqno="10832">
From: Mark_W_Lumsden@vnet.ibm.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: CALS tables to HTML?
Date: 22 Sep 1995 20:22:19 GMT
Organization: IBM Workgroup Electronic Publishing
Message-ID: <43v5tr$aj9@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>
Reply-To: Mark_W_Lumsden@vnet.ibm.com

I'm looking for something that can translate CALS table markup to HTML--preferrably 
public domain.  

Anyone know of such a thing?

Thanks,
Mark Lumsden
IBM Information Management

</message>
<message id="<bbos-2409951826220001@ts-h08-15-59.ucc.su.oz.au>" date="3020919982" seqno="10833">
From: bbos@cs.su.oz.au (Brooke Benjamin Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Should I use SGML?
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 18:26:22 +1000
Organization: Sydney University
Message-ID: \<bbos-2409951826220001@ts-h08-15-59.ucc.su.oz.au>

Greetings,

I am trying to do customisation of HTML documents and was wondering whether
I should use SGML, and if so, how would it be used?

What I will be doing for customisation is putting further markup into HTML
documents to act as Customisation directives.  I was expecting that how the 
customisation would work is the document would have an extension such as
.cdc.  Then I'd use a MIME type for this so the web server would launch an
application to handle this type of document, which would produce an HTML
document.  

I guess that SGML parsing could be used in the application.  But how would 
it help me - would it make my job of determining the sections delimetered
by customisation markup easier?  Can the latest HTML dtd be easily
incorporated into this new dtd I'd have to write (SGML works on DTD's doesn't
it?)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, since if SGML would be the best way
to tackle this problem then I'd like to use it.

Thankyou,
BBOS
__
bbos@cs.su.oz.au
</message>
<message id="<441gn9$8h@news.pi.se>" date="3020866728" seqno="10834">
From: christian.w@pi.se (Christian Wallgren)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML Companion DTD Browser
Date: 23 Sep 1995 17:38:48 GMT
Organization: Publishing Development AB
Message-ID: <441gn9$8h@news.pi.se>
Reply-To: christian@pubdev.se

The free-ware SGML Companion DTD browser for MS Windows 
may now be downloaded from the SGML Repository:

	ftp://ifi.uio.no/pub/SGML/Demo/sgcbrows.zip

(you also need pkunzip).

Christian Wallgren


Publishing Development AB
http://www.pi.se/pubdev/pubdev.html
</message>
<message id="<19950923.750E2E8.B3FD@contessa.phone.net>" date="3020876080" seqno="10835">
From: mwm@contessa.phone.net (Mike Meyer)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Proposed State & Federal Regulations for the INTERNET!
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 95 12:14:40 PST
Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica
Message-ID: <19950923.750E2E8.B3FD@contessa.phone.net>
References: <440b5a$6kb@newsie.wis.com>

THe following has nothing to do with SGML, which is the subject of the
newsgroup you posted it to. Since this has shown up in other groups
that it's unrelated to, it looks like spam. Seems like you're abusing
the internet as badly as Canter and Seigel. Of course, politicians and
lawyers are closely related species of slime, so this is to be expected.

If you're really interested in the good of the internet, you won't do
this again.

	\<mike


In <440b5a$6kb@newsie.wis.com>, Politics@usa.com wrote:
>   My name is Scott Glasrud, and I am running for the New Mexico State Senate
> during the 1996 elections. One of the reasons I have chosen to run is to combat 
> the 
> proposed state and federal regulations of the Internet.  As you know, the 
> Internet 
> was never designed to be regulated!  It was designed to allow communications in
> the event of anuclear war or a major catastrophe. I OPPOSE REGULATION, and if 
> elected
> will fight to preserve your constitutional rights. HOWEVER, I NEED YOUR HELP!
> 
> I am asking each person who reeives this message to send $5.00 to the 
> Scott Glasrud Campaign Committee.  If we pull together, we CAN protect our first
> amendment rights!  HELP ME show the politicians the POWER behind this
> important NETWORK.  Please send contributions to:
> 
>                                     The Scott Glasrud Campaign Committee
>                                     11024 Montgomery Blvd. NE, Suite 179
>                                          Albuquerque, New Mexico  87111
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you!
> 
</message>
<message id="<44448b$8lh@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>" date="3020952267" seqno="10836">
From: kimber@passage.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: What tools are available
Date: 24 Sep 1995 17:24:27 GMT
Organization: Passage Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <44448b$8lh@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>
References: \<Pine.HPP.3.91.950922162152.3004A-100000@aps1.wifa.uni-leipzig.de>

In article \<Pine.HPP.3.91.950922162152.3004A-100000@aps1.wifa.uni-leipzig.de>, siebert@aps1.wifa.uni-leipzig.de says...

>  Is it possible to restrict the values one could assign to a tag (Read: 
>Are there tools that allow to set up forms with fields into which only
>predefined fields can be entered?)
>  Are there tools to support the retrieval of more or less related items 
>by using terms of defined conceptual closeness? (I guess the last bit has 
>nothing to do with SGML but there might someone...)

There are tools to do these things and more (just spent the last couple of 
days researching the current state of SGML retrieval tools).

The major tools for large-scale indexing and retrieval of SGML data are:

o Open Text 5 and the Latitude application based on it, from OpenText Corp. 
  see "http://www.opentext.com"
o Information Dimensions, Inc. (IDI) and their BASIS SGMLserver application.
  See "http://www.oclc.org/oclc/idi/idihome.htm"
o EBT's DynaText and DynaWeb systems. See "http://www.ebt.com"

In addition, the other major database vendors are all developing some sort
of SGML support for their systems. I know there are other SGML retrieval
tools as well, but I'm not familiar with them. 

Open Text 5 and BASIS SGMLserver are both dedicated retrieval systems that
you use to build applications on top of. They both provide application 
toolkits and development consulting. Latitude is an application of Open 
Text 5 that integrates several viewers with the base Open Text 5 indexing 
and retrieval system. DynaText is primarily an SGML presentation system 
that provides significant indexing and retrieval function. Through the 
DynaWeb product, you can serve DynaText books on the Web as HTML documents 
dynamically.

Open Text 5 and BASIS SGMLserver are distinguished by their base technological
approach. Open Text 5 is primarily an indexing system that works against 
existing data however it is stored. BASIS is a dedicated database system that 
you load documents into. Technically, the data that is stored in BASIS SGMLserver 
is not SGML in the strict sense, but that may not be a problem depending on the 
nature of your enterprise and the way you plan to use the data.

There are number of SGML authoring tools, all of which can be customized to
provide the sort of data entry tools you need. You can also write your own
data entry tools using things like Visual Basic or Tk/Tcl. 

The main SGML editors are:

o ADEPT*Editor, from Arbortext, Inc. (see "http://www.arbortext.com")
o SoftQuad Author/Editor, from SoftQuad (see "http://www.sq.com")
o InContext 2, from InContext, Inc. (see "http://www.incontext.com")
o GRiF, from GRiF, SA, in France (see "http://www.grif.fr")

All of these products can be adapted to do what it sounds like you
need to do.

-- 
\<Address HyTime=bibloc>
W. Eliot Kimber (kimber@passage.com) Systems Analyst and HyTime Consultant
Passage Systems, Inc., 2608 Pinewood Terr., Austin TX 78757 (512)339-1400
10596 N. Tantau Ave, Cupertino CA, 95014, (408) 366-0300
"SGML or die"
\</Address>

</message>
<message id="<4442hv$8lh@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>" date="3020950527" seqno="10837">
From: kimber@passage.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Table of contents and subdocuments
Date: 24 Sep 1995 16:55:27 GMT
Organization: Passage Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <4442hv$8lh@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>
References: <9509210857.AA19310@jytko.jyu.fi> <43vvip$a1h@nimitz.fibr.net>

In article <43vvip$a1h@nimitz.fibr.net>, dksand@txdirect.net says...
>
>>Secondly, I would like to know what is the best way to define the table of
>>contents in DTD. The purpose is to generate the actual table of contents as
>>automatically as possible. An other goal is to take advantage of the
>>HyTime-standard and define links from the table of contents to the each
>>chapter.
>The table of contents is generated by the application, not SGML.  If
>you are using a program such as EBT's DynaText, SoftQuad's Explorer (I
>think?), or Guide, etc.  The table of contents and the links are
>automatically created.  You as the application creator have the
>ability to tell the program which levels you want in the TOC....  

There are often times when you want to be able to represent a table of 
contents explicitly in a document even though, as Dennis points out, most
SGML presentation and composition systems can generate a table of contents
for you. For example, you might want to be able to capture the result of
generating a table of contents or you might need to build a table of contents
in a capricious or arbitrary manner (possibly without write access to the
data the TOC relates to, ruling out the "in/out" attribute solution). In 
addition, not all tables of contents are textual (for example, I have one
customer who needed to be able to have either a textual table of contents
or a graphical one--think of Web pages with images for navigation).
Remember too that even when a document has an explicit TOC, it can 
always be hidden in the presented version and replaced by an automatic TOC.

Here is the DTD fragment I've developed for representing TOCs.

\<!-- Element types for representing TOCs -->
\<!ELEMENT TOC           O O (Title, TCE+, LocAddr?) >
\<!ATTLIST TOC
     ID          ID   #IMPLIED  
     conloc      IDREF #CONREF -- Uses HyTime CONLOC facility
                                  to refer to complete TOC
                                  held elsewhere. --
     InfoMaster NAME #FIXED "Container"
>
\<!ELEMENT TCE           O O (Title, Location?, TCE*) 
                        -- Table of contents entry --
>
\<!ATTLIST TCE
     ID          ID   #IMPLIED  
     InfoMaster NAME #FIXED "Container"
>
\<!ELEMENT Location           O O (%Phrases.Links;)* 
                        -- The location of the title. Could
                           be a link or just text (e.g.,
                           a page number. --
>
\<!ATTLIST Location
     ID          ID   #IMPLIED  
     InfoMaster NAME #FIXED "Container"
>
\<!-- % Locations: The list of location address element types used
       in your DTD. -->
\<!ELEMENT LocAddr  - O (%Locations;)*
                   -- Holds any HyTime location address elements
                      needed by the links (if any) in Location.--
                   -- This element is a convenience to bind
                      references and location addresses more closely
                      together. You could put the location addresses
                      anywhere in the document. -- 
>
\<!ATTLIST LocAddr
     ID          ID   #IMPLIED  
     InfoMaster NAME #FIXED "Container"
>

>>Thirdly, in the documents appear emphasizing words and references to other
>>documents among the normal text. I would like to know if the next way is
>>suitable for define that:
>
>>(a)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA)  +(emphasizing, reference) >
>>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >
>
>>I was also thinking to do this by the next two ways. The b-solution isn't
>>very recommended, at least by the books. The alternative c isn't very nice
>>either, because the writer must always choose the text-tag before writing
>>the normal text.
>
>>(b)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA | emphasizing | reference)+ >
>>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >
>
>>(c)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (text | emphasizing | reference)+ >
>>      \<!ELEMENT text - - (#PCDATA) >
>>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

Actually, the "B" solution is the best solution. The A solution is, in my
opinion, an inappropriate use of inclusions (inclusions should only be
used for element types that are what I call "semantically invisible" to the
things around them, such as index entries and some forms of annotation. Using
inclusions for emphasis and reference elements would both inappropriately
suggest a semantic invisibility and present the potential for the unwanted
dropping of significant record ends following included elements that end
input lines. It would also potentially allow the included elements in 
contexts where they are not intended without the additional use of
exclusions (which starts to get very ugly very quickly--in my opinion there
is never a good use for exclusions, unless it is to exclude an inclusion
from itself).

Solution C introduces another element type ("text") that adds no further 
information than allowing the PCDATA token did. Because the content model
in solution B is a repeating OR group, there are no potential mixed content
model problems.

-- 
\<Address HyTime=bibloc>
W. Eliot Kimber (kimber@passage.com) Systems Analyst and HyTime Consultant
Passage Systems, Inc., 2608 Pinewood Terr., Austin TX 78757 (512)339-1400
10596 N. Tantau Ave, Cupertino CA, 95014, (408) 366-0300
"SGML or die"
\</Address>

</message>
<message id="<4445v4$8lh@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>" date="3020954020" seqno="10838">
From: kimber@passage.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Reviewing SGML Tools: Request for Information
Date: 24 Sep 1995 17:53:40 GMT
Organization: Passage Systems, Inc.
Message-ID: <4445v4$8lh@pubxfer2.news.psi.net>

As an SGML systems integrator, Passage Systems works with almost all the
SGML tools and tool vendors there are. We try to match our customers to
the tools that best meet their needs. To help further that goal, as a
service to our customers and to the SGML community as a whole, we have
started developing a document consisting of detailed reviews and 
evaluations of SGML and SGML-related tools. Our intent is to make some or
all of this document available on the Web once it is sufficiently complete
to be publishable (a document of this sort can never be totally complete).

While I am personally familiar with a large number of SGML tools, I can't
know them all. In addition, there are so many new tools coming out all
the time that it's impossible to keep up.

Therefore, if you are the supplier or reseller of a product in any of
the categories listed below and you think I may not know about your
product, please send me whatever information you can. Ideally, I would
like to get an evaluation copy of your product if it's something I or
others within Passage Systems can use in their day-to-day work. We try
to make a point of using as many different SGML tools as we can in our
day to day work.

The principles by which these evaluations will be produced are:

1. The evaluations will be as complete and honest as we can make
them and will be our opinions as SGML experts and users of tools.

2. All evaluations are based as much as possible on our own or our
customers' experience with the products reviewed. Reviews based only
on marketing information will be characterized as such. We will 
include links to vendors' own Web-based marketing information.

3. Product vendors will be given an opportunity to check our reviews
of their products for factual accuracy before they are published.  
However, no claims relating to standards compliance will be included 
unless we have verified them ourselves (as SGML experts, we consider 
ourselves well qualified to make these judgements).

Our goal is to provide a source of useful and reliable information about
SGML products that will be of benefit to our customers. We want to work
as closely as we can with product vendors to make sure their products
are fairly represented. 

NOTE: Please do not send me mail asking for a copy of this document.
When and if it is made available, it will be made available over the Web. 
Look for an announcement in this newsgroup.

The product categories we have currently identified are:

o SGML editors
o HTML editors and conversion tools (including DTP/WP to HTML)
o Online presentation systems (SGML and non-SGML)
o Conversion systems and utilities
o Document management and workflow systems
o SGML-based print composition systems
o SGML-based search and retrieval systems
o Network and Internet document delivery systems

If you have products in any of these categories and think that I
may not know about your product or may not have the latest information
(quite likely), please contact me at the address below. Printed
material and evaluation software should be sent to the Austin address.

-- 
\<Address HyTime=bibloc>
W. Eliot Kimber (kimber@passage.com) Systems Analyst and HyTime Consultant
Passage Systems, Inc., 2608 Pinewood Terr., Austin TX 78757 (512)339-1400
10596 N. Tantau Ave, Cupertino CA, 95014, (408) 366-0300
"SGML or die"
\</Address>

</message>
<message id="<43uaaj$9gk@lisa.sonetis.com>" date="3020761875" seqno="10839">
From: Gary Palmer \<gpalmer@sonetis.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Equation Viewer
Date: 22 Sep 1995 12:31:15 GMT
Organization: ActiveSystems, Inc.
Message-ID: <43uaaj$9gk@lisa.sonetis.com>

Am looking for a Windows-based SGML editor/viewer for formulas/equations.

Am aware that ArborText has a UNIX-based product and that a Windows 
version is to be released at some time in the future.

I would appreciate any information available on the subject.

Many thanks

Gary Palmer              gpalmer@sonetis.com
Director R\&D             (613) 729-2043 (Eastern)
ActiveSystems, Inc.      (613) 729-2874 (Fax)
Ottawa

</message>
<message id="<4460dh$acl@news.cict.fr>" date="3021013873" seqno="10840">
From: mr@piau ()
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: AECMA 1000D -- on/offline information?
Date: 25 Sep 1995 10:31:13 GMT
Message-ID: <4460dh$acl@news.cict.fr>
References: <43pelm$n7a@zeus.tcp.co.uk>
Reply-To: michel.rodriguez@avions.aerospatiale.fr

Howard Technical Information (huk_eas@tcp.co.uk) wrote:
: I've been asked to look into the nuts & bolts of AECMA 1000D for one
: of our customers.  I haven't managed to find anything on-line so far,
: can anyone point me at appropriate information, either on- or
: off-line?

: Many thanks in advance,

: Nick Barron
: IT Supervisor


--

The British MoD representative for AECMA 1000D is ATP, in Glasgow.
You should ask them for any information on the subject.
Here is the address of the chairman of the AECMA group in charge
of the maintenance of the specification :
Dennis HOYLAND
DDATP (RAF)
Kentigern House
65 Brown street
Glasgow
G2 8EX


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

		 michel.rodriguez@avions.aerospatiale.fr
</message>
<message id="<44618t$acl@news.cict.fr>" date="3021014749" seqno="10841">
From: mr@piau ()
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Looking for HyTime LINK examples (Panorama)
Date: 25 Sep 1995 10:45:49 GMT
Message-ID: <44618t$acl@news.cict.fr>
References: <43js24$h4a@naurouze.cert.fr>
Reply-To: michel.rodriguez@avions.aerospatiale.fr

hollende (Martin.Hollender@onecert.fr) wrote:
: I would like to study complex examples of HyTime Links
: (e.g. ilinks). Does anybody know where I can find such
: documents?
: SoftQuad Panorama has some HyTime support, so I would be
: very interested in URLs to demonstrate the HyTime hyperlinking 
: capabilities of Panorama.
: Thank you very much
: Martin Hollender



--

If you want I can provide you with some tricky aexamples from the AECMA 1000D,
which is the European standard for military aircraft technical publications.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

		 michel.rodriguez@avions.aerospatiale.fr
</message>
<message id="<4464lq$4a7@mephisto.eo.net>" date="3021018233" seqno="10842">
From: Dominic Dunlop \<ddun@eo.net>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: DTDs for Plays/Poems/Drama
Date: 25 Sep 1995 11:43:53 GMT
Organization: Europe Online
Message-ID: <4464lq$4a7@mephisto.eo.net>
References: <43s6bc$cvc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
To: dgdillaman@aol.com

In general, try the SGML Web page, http://www.sil.org/sgml/sgml.html.

In particular, look up "Text Encoding Initiative" on that page.  You should find 
that the Initiative's Recommendations do almost everything that you need.

</message>
<message id="<DFBLp7.8M0@andyne.on.ca>" date="3020784666" seqno="10843">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: jbuell@andyne.on.ca (Jackie Buell)
Subject: Q: sgmls and SCOPE
Sender: usenet@andyne.on.ca
Message-ID: \<DFBLp7.8M0@andyne.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:51:06 GMT
Organization: Andyne Computing Ltd.

I'm using sgmls and am trying to parse a test doc that sets the SCOPE in the 
declaration to INSTANCE.  sgmls returns 'Unsupported feature at (location ...) 
"INSTANCE" scope not supported'.
1. Does anyone know why this would not be supported?
2. Does anyone use this option?

Just tried the same test using nsgmls and it has no problem with it.  Was this 
an over sight on sgmls?
</message>
<message id="<446k13$29u@crchh327.rich.bnr.ca>" date="3021033955" seqno="10844">
From: Greg Wait \<Z0OEY@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: triangle.talks,comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML User's Group?
Date: 25 Sep 1995 16:05:55 GMT
Organization: BrainTrust Communications
Message-ID: <446k13$29u@crchh327.rich.bnr.ca>
References: <43cr1q$9je@news.duke.edu>

ruslan@acpub.duke.edu (Robin LaPasha) wrote:
>I remember mention of an SGML user's group about a year
>ago.  They met monthly somewhere in the RTP.
>
>Are they/you still around?
>
>When/where do they/you meet?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>-- 
>Robin LaPasha                          Soviet Literature Scanning Project
>ruslan@acpub.duke.edu                  Duke University

Robin,
If you e-mail me, I think I can dig up some info (a contact person/address/phn)
on the NCSGMLUG.  I don't have the info here at work, and I know I'll forget,
but if you send me e-mail, I should be able to find it at my desk at home, and
I'll e-mail the info back to you.
-- 
Greg Wait \<Z0OEY@ix.netcom.com>

</message>
<message id="<446lh6$gh1@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>" date="3021035494" seqno="10845">
From: bhadley@vnet.ibm.com
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: IBM BookMaster, EBT DynaText
Date: 25 Sep 1995 16:31:34 GMT
Organization: ISSC Southeast Region
Message-ID: <446lh6$gh1@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com>
References: \<NEWTNews.811708729.17122.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com> <43v8b5$ovj@paw.montana.com>
Reply-To: bhadley@vnet.ibm.com

In <43v8b5$ovj@paw.montana.com>, kerscher@montana.com writes:
>
>I believe BUILD/SGML is out. This is available on a CD for
>$1995. and this takes SGML from a variety of DTDS as input
>and creates the .boo file. 
 
BookManager BUILD/SGML is included in a package called, "IBM Electronic
Publishing Edition".  In addition to BUILD/SGML, the package has:		
- BUILD for OS/2, which converts wordprocessor files to .boo.
- IBM BookServer, which serves .boo files over the World Wide Web, converting
   to HTML on the fly.  (It processes the .boo files in the background for things
   such as cross-bookshelf searching and other stuff you can't do with an HTML
   file).
- An HTTP-D server
-  Language dictionaries and other stuff you might find useful
- 10 licenses of BookManager READ (mix and match READ/2 and READ for Windows.

You can try out the BookServer at http://booksrv2.raleigh.ibm.com.  For more
info, send a note to bookmgr@vnet.ibm.com.

Brad Hadley
IBM Software Marketing Center
Research Triangle Park, NC
</message>
<message id="<446vul$c20@brighton.openmarket.com>" date="3021046165" seqno="10846">
From: Mike Carifio \<carifio@OpenMarket.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Where can I find info on dsssl and dsssl implementation?
Date: 25 Sep 1995 19:29:25 GMT
Organization: OpenMarket, Inc
Message-ID: <446vul$c20@brighton.openmarket.com>

Do commericial products use DSSSL (whatever it really is) to
support the translation piece of SGML, for example translating
a file into (say) postscript? How about translating from one
DTD to another?

Do any commercial tools let me attach my own specific actions to
parsing tags? For example, suppose I wanted a tag

	\<person name=carifio company=omi>

to translate into "Mike Carifio", after checking in the personnal database
to see that I existed. Could I write a parser to do that, without resorting
to brute force (such as writing my own recursive descent parser...)

</message>
<message id="<448a48$k49@naurouze.cert.fr>" date="3021089352" seqno="10847">
From: Martin Hollender \<Martin.Hollender@onecert.fr>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: DSSSL information?
Date: 26 Sep 1995 07:29:12 GMT
Organization: EURISCO
Message-ID: <448a48$k49@naurouze.cert.fr>
References: <43t2s0$8b1@mojo.eng.umd.edu>
To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu

You can find some information on DSSSL at
http://www.jclark.com/


</message>
<message id="<00996F84A0C71C20.20C00042@dpsl.co.uk>" date="3021097086" seqno="10848">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Date: 26 Sep 1995 09:38:06 GMT
Message-ID: <00996F84A0C71C20.20C00042@dpsl.co.uk>
From: Pam Gennusa \<plg@dpsl.co.uk>
Subject: SGML Europe '96 - Call for Participation

			CALL FOR PARTICIPATION

The following is an excerpt from the "Call for Participation" for 
SGML Europe '96 to be held the week of 12th May 1996 in Munich. 
If you would like to receive a printed version or would like to be 
put on the mailing list for the advance program mailing, please send 
mail to:	 Munich96@aol.com

This year, the theme of the conference is:

		And this answer is........

			SGML


As readers of this newsgroup, you know that SGML is more than a standard. It
supports the reuse and control of information; reduces dependence on software 
and hardware systems; facilitates the development of multi-media products; 
separates content from process; is an important tool for all aspects of 
information management; and more. 

This year, SGML Europe, the comprehensive annual conference on SGML,  
concentrates on the role SGML plays in an organization's decision to change 
how they produce, manage, or deploy their information. It will also focus on 
the evolution in business processes brought about by the adoption of SGML.

We are looking for presentations that describe how SGML is the answer as part 
of a business or publishing solution.

	CALL FOR PARTICIPATION IN THE SGML EUROPE '96 FACULTY.

Do you have experience with SGML as the answer? 

This year we are looking for users or developers to participate as the 
faculty of the conference. Faculty members may give a presentation and/or 
lead a workshop. Presentations may focus on management/business, 
introductory, application, or advanced technical issues. The most 
important criterion is that faculty members are willing to share an 
idea that was important to them or their organization when considering, 
planning, or using SGML.

Presentations may answer a variety of questions. Here are some samples, 
but don't be limited by the list - they're just examples: 

- Why did you decide on SGML? What influenced your decision?
- How did you convince management?
- What major idea occurred to you while implementing SGML?
- What technical obstacles did you overcome?
- How has SGML helped in the evolution of your business processes?
- What problems have been answered in part or in whole by SGML?
- Was SGML the cause of change or the effect of it in your company?
- What would you do differently next time?
- How did you improve your initial SGML application?
- How do you plan to expand your SGML application?

In other words, what silver bullets do you have to share? What blindingly 
simple, or not so simple, ideas changed the way you do business, the way you 
develop documentation or other information products. How did SGML support 
that change?

What made SGML the answer for you or your organization?

If you are interested in being part of the Faculty at SGML Europe '96, 
submit:
	- title of presentation
	- author's name & contact information, including fax and email 
		address, if available
	- the presenter's biography (approx 50 words)

	One or more of the following:
	- an abstract of the presentation (approx 100 words)*
	- an abstract of the workshop that might be derived from the 
		presentation (approx 100 words)*
	- an abstract of a full-day seminar (6 hours), educational in nature, 
		to be presented on the Monday or Tuesday preceding the 
		conference proper (approx 100 words accompanied by a 
		course outline)**

* Please specify if presentation works best at 30 or 45 minutes in length. 
  Workshops should last approx 2.5 hours. Although not all presenters will 
  give workshops, please submit workshop ideas, if applicable, as we would 
  like to be able to expand on as many presentations in workshops as possible. 
  Workshops should be designed to be highly participatory. Abstracts for 
  workshops not accompanied by presentations are also welcomed.

**Please specify whether the seminar is aimed at a technical or management 
  audience.


Send these to the attention of: SGML Europe '96 Programme Committee:

Database Publishing Systems Ltd
608 Delta Business Park
Great Western Way
Swindon, Wiltshire SN5 7XF, UK
Phone: +44 1793 512 515
Fax: +44 1973 512 516
Email: Pam_Gennusa@dpsl.co.uk

or 

Graphic Communications Association
100 Daingerfield Road
Alexandria, VA 22314, USA
Phone: +1 703 519 8160
Fax: +1 703 548 2867
Email: Munich96@aol.com

Deadline for abstract submissions - 20th October 1995

PRELIMINARY SCHEDULE

Sunday,  12 May
07:30		Seminar Registration
09:00 - 17:00	Seminars 

Monday, 13 May
07:30		Advanced Seminar Registration
09:00 - 17:00	Advanced Seminars and SGML Open Meetings
12:00 - 17:00	Early  Conference Registration

Tuesday, 14 May
07:30		Registration
09:00		Opening plenary
12:00		Luncheon and Software Gallery
14:00		Break-out sessions
17:00		Sessions adjourn, SGML User's Group Meeting
18:00		SGML Users' Group Meeting adjourns
19:00		Sofware Gallery closes


Wednesday, 15 May
09:00		Break-out sessions
12:00		Luncheon and Software Gallery
14:00		Workshops
17:00		Sessions adjourn
19:00		Software Gallery closes

Thursday, 16 May
09:00		Workshops
12:00		Luncheon
13:30		Closing Plenary
15:00		Conference adjourns

CALL FOR EXHIBITORS

Software products are critical to the implementation of SGML. The Software 
Gallery at SGML Europe has become an integral part of the conference series. 
Each year more and more developers are choosing SGML Europe as the opportunity 
for hands-on display of products that support the application of SGML and 
related standards. 

If your organization is interested in participating in the SGML Europe '96 
Software Gallery, contact Chris Ziener or Julie Morrison at GCA no later 
than 12 April 1996. 


REGISTRATION INFORMATION

The registration fees include all conference materials, luncheons, 
receptions and software gallery. The registration fees do not include hotel 
accommodations. All accommodation reservations are the responsibility of 
the attendee.
				Conference	If registered 
	  	 		Fees		by 30 November '95
				----------	------------------
	GCA Member		$690		$615
	Nonmember		$895		$820
	Qualifying User Groups	$805		$730
	Companion/Spouse	$150

For registration form: contact the GCA by phone +1 703 519 8174 or 
					  fax   +1 703 548 2867 or 
					  email Munich96@aol.com

ALL REGISTRATION FEES MUST BE PAID AT TIME OF REGISTRATION. ALL FEES MUST BE IN 
U.S. DOLLARS.

VENUE

SGML Europe '96 takes place at the Munich Park Hilton Hotel, Munich, Germany. 
The Munich Park Hilton is set in a quiet location close to the English Garden, 
the heart of Munich, within easy reach of the shopping and business centres. 
Hotel address: Am Tucherpark 7, 80538 Munich. Telephone: +49 89 3845 0. 
FAX: +49 89 3845 1845.

More details on the city of Munich, the hotel, and transportation options 
will provided with confirmation of conference registration. 

HOTEL ACCOMMODATIONS

All hotel accommodations are the responsibility of the SGML Europe '96 
attendee. A number of rooms have been reserved at the Munich Park Hilton. 
The negotiated conference rates are: 
	- Single DM 190
	- Double DM 210
To make accommodation reservations contact the hotel at +49 89 38 45 0 and 
identify yourself as an SGML Europe attendee to qualify for the conference 
discount.

All hotel reservations must be made prior to 12 April 1996. After that date, 
conference rates and availability cannot be guaranteed.




</message>
<message id="<1995Sep26.081538.18096@hgl.signaal.nl>" date="3021092138" seqno="10849">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: jta_swets@hgl.signaal.nl (Swets J.T.A.)
Subject: Re: Looking for HyTime LINK examples (Panorama)
Message-ID: <1995Sep26.081538.18096@hgl.signaal.nl>
Sender: usenet@hgl.signaal.nl (USENET News System)
Organization: Hollandse Signaal apparaten BV
References: <43js24$h4a@naurouze.cert.fr> <44618t$acl@news.cict.fr>
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 08:15:38 GMT

mr@piau wrote:

: If you want I can provide you with some tricky aexamples from the AECMA 1000D,
: which is the European standard for military aircraft technical publications.

: 		 michel.rodriguez@avions.aerospatiale.fr


As more people like to study HyTime examples, please tell us how
to get these AECMA 1000D ones.


*******************************************************************
Mr. J.T.A. Swets                 Document Technology Consultant
email: jta_swets@hgl.signaal.nl  Research, Development & Technology 
tel: (+31)-(0)74-482539 (work)   Dept. RDT-DSA-PIM
fax: (+31)-(0)74-484009
                  Hollandse Signaalapparaten BV,
           PO Box 42, 7550 GD  Hengelo, The Netherlands.
                                                                   
*************************** Unclassified **************************
</message>
<message id="<4494i6$p77@larry.infi.net>" date="3021116422" seqno="10850">
From: pmurray@news.infi.net (Philip C. Murray)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Draft HyTime Corrigendum?
Date: 26 Sep 1995 11:00:22 -0400
Organization: InfiNet
Message-ID: <4494i6$p77@larry.infi.net>
Summary: Seeking draft of HyTime Corrigendum
Keywords: HyTime

Is there an FTP-able copy of the draft HyTime Corrigendum?

We'd like our person reviewing the DeRose/Durand and Kimber books on HyTime
to have that up-to-date context.

Thanks,

	Phil Murray
	Editor-in-Chief
-- 
Philip C. Murray                        pmurray@infi.net
Electronic Information Age, Inc.
Publishers of the _EIA Electronic Document Report_
462 Washington St., Portsmouth, VA 23704  804-397-4644
</message>
<message id="<449qnt$dd@vishnu.jussieu.fr>" date="3021139133" seqno="10851">
From: patt@ais.berger-levrault.fr (Pierre Attar)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Chemical entity set
Date: 26 Sep 1995 21:18:53 GMT
Organization: Tireme SARL
Message-ID: <449qnt$dd@vishnu.jussieu.fr>

I've heard about a new ISO entity set for chemical characters such as 
triple horizontal bar (triple bond) and so forth ...

I've not see any reference on it in the chemical DTD under 
development in the US.

So, does anyone knows where I can find it ? It's definition and its graphical 
representation ?


Thanks for answering,

Pierre Attar
</message>
<message id="<449b8j$on@cortex.dialin.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>" date="3021123283" seqno="10852">
From: mskuhn@unrza3.dialin.rrze.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Table of contents and subdocuments
Date: 26 Sep 1995 17:54:43 +0100
Organization: Markus Kuhn, 91080 Uttenreuth, Germany
Message-ID: <449b8j$on@cortex.dialin.rrze.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <9509210857.AA19310@jytko.jyu.fi>
Reply-To: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de

Katri Kauppinen \<jytrio@cs.jyu.fi> writes:

>Thirdly, in the documents appear emphasizing words and references to other
>documents among the normal text. I would like to know if the next way is
>suitable for define that:

>(a)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA)  +(emphasizing, reference) >
>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

>I was also thinking to do this by the next two ways. The b-solution isn't
>very recommended, at least by the books.

>(b)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA | emphasizing | reference)+ >
>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

What should be wrong with b)? In my opinion, it is the most sensible
and easy to understand approach. I have used it already several times in
DTDs which I designed and I have never encountered a problem with this
way of including emphasizing and reference elements in paragraphs. If
there is a good reason to avoid b), please tell us.

Markus

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student -- University of Erlangen,
Internet Mail: \<mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> - Germany
WWW Home: \<http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/user/mskuhn>
</message>
<message id="<449osh$3fn@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3021137233" seqno="10853">
From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and OpenDoc
Date: 26 Sep 1995 20:47:13 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
Message-ID: <449osh$3fn@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>
References: \<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com>
Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com

Marge T. Lorang (ir003188@interramp.com) wrote:
: I know that parts of this topic were discussed on c.t.SGML previously
: (?1-2 years ago?) but at the time I didn't have a need to follow the
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: discussion.  Now I do :-(.
               ^^^^^^^^

This happens to me all the time.

But now I use http://www.dejanews.com, an index of USENET newsgroups.

I guess it doesn't go back far enough to get the threads that you
remembered though.

The only interesting match for "OpenDoc" is included below.

You may also want to check the c.t.s archives at ftp.ifi.uio.no

-----------------------------------------------------------------

			SGML Europe '95

			16-19th May 1995
			The Kongresshaus
			Gmunden, Austria


  This year, SGML Europe '95, the 13th annual comprehensive conference on SGML 
sponsored by the GCA, focuses on the different approaches available to 
implementors and users. SGML Europe '95 will be a forum for various points of 
view. Sessions include:

  OPENING KEYNOTE PANEL -- keynote addresses include: 
	- The practice of SGML: art or science? -- Yuri Rubinsky, SoftQuad Inc.
	- Technical Keynote -- Charles Goldfarb, Information Management 
				Consulting
	- The Internet and SGML-- Robert Cailliau, CERN
	- Six Years On -- Koen Mulder, Gouda Quint

  POINT/COUNTERPOINT SESSIONS: four sessions will be devoted to 
exploring two sides of topical SGML implementation issues:

	- Do we tell them they are authoring SGML documents?
	- Using object-oriented databases vs. relational databases for 
	  	SGML systems
	- Phased and confused: approaches to SGML projects
	- Publishing on the Web: SGML or HTML

  WORKSHOPS: continuing on from the success of the Workshops held at 
SGML Europe '94, workshop sessions will take place both Wednesday and Thursday 
afternoons. There will be a variety of workshops to choose from each day. The 
workshop format will include brief presentation followed by ample time for 
discussion. Workshops topics include:

	- Building and selling the business case for SGML
	* Options for style sheet interchange
	* SGML, OpenDoc and OLE 2.0: a technical point of view
                ^^^^^^^




	- Hytime and its aplications: principal concepts and techniques
	- Integrating SGML databases
	- Introducting your authors to SGML: managing change and maximizing 
		results
	- Is SGML ready for the mainstream (and is the mainstream ready for 
		SGML)?
	* Minimal HyTime subset to support interchange
	- Multilingual SGML
	- SGML and document management
	- Documenting DTDs
	- Publishing on the Web: SGML or HTML

  SGML Open has organized an \&quot;advanced technical workshop\&quot; track. Several of 
the workshops scheduled during the workshop time slots will be part of this 
track (annotated with an \&quot;*\&quot; above). While these workshops are not officially 
SGML Open committee meetings | and they are open to all conference attendees 
with an interest in in-depth discussions of technical issues | they plan to 
run these workshops in much the same manner as SGML Open technical committee 
meetings.

  INDUSTRY PERSPECTIVES: the closing plenary places the debates 
engaged in at SGML Europe '95 into a larger context. Industries/special
interest groups represented include:

	- semiconductor 
	- pharmaceutical 
	- telecommunications
	- commercial aerospace
	- sight impaired
	- automotive
	- defence

  AND MORE -- There will also be sessions on:

	- Business goals and user requirements for SGML systems
	- A survey of HyTime applications
	- The A B Cs of DSSSL

  EXHIBITIONS: tools and services are the building blocks used to 
create SGML implementation; the exhibitors' gallery applies practice to 
theory. The exhibition area will be open Wednesday and Thursday. Lunches and 
breaks will be held in the exhibit area giving participants ample opportunity 
to see each of the demonstrations.

  SGML USERS' GROUP ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING (AGM): International, 
chapter, and SIG members meet on Tuesday, 16th May, 16:30-18:00.

  SGML OPEN COMMITTEE MEETINGS: SGML Open, the consortium for 
providers of SGML products and services will hold a member meeting on Friday, 
19th May, 14:00-18:00. Technical and Marketiing Committees will meet on 
Monday, 15th May, 09:00-15:00.

  VENUE: SGML Europe '95 takes place at the Kongresshaus in Gmunden, 
Austria. Gmunden is accessible by train or automobile from Munich, Germany or 
Vienna, Austria International Airports as well as Salzburg Airport.

  REGISTRATION FEES: The registration fee includes: 5 nights 
accommodations in a four-star hotel; all meals for five days (breakfasts, 
lunches, receptions, dinners); conference materials; and exhibits.

	GCA Member		$1445
	Nonmember		$1690
	Qualifying User Groups	$1595
	Companion/ Spouse	$ 350


--
  Tad McClellan,      Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy)
                      email: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com
  Money isn't everything ...
  but it's way ahead of whatever's in second place.
</message>
<message id="<449q10$dtm@crl2.crl.com>" date="3021138400" seqno="10854">
From: jenglish@crl.com (Joe English)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: % and + in Netscapified tags
Date: 26 Sep 1995 14:06:40 -0700
Organization: Mentally ill venomous purists with strange emotional drives
Message-ID: <449q10$dtm@crl2.crl.com>
References: <449kc9$l13@priam.umcs.lublin.pl>

Grzesiek Staniak  \<webadm@urania.umcs.lublin.pl> wrote:
>
>Just a simple question from a beginner. I understand that one of the 
>mistakes Netscape made while "extending" HTML was to allow the signs 
>"%" and "+" to appear in attributes of their new tags, while they 
>should remain reserved for marking parameter entities and occurrence
>specification in content models, respectively.

That's actually not a problem, since the PERO (%)
and PLUS (+) delimiters are not recognized in 
start-tags anyway.

The real problem is that many of the examples provided
incorrectly omit the quotes around attribute values which
contain these characters, e.g., \<TABLE WIDTH=100%> (And,
of course, Netscape's parser happily accepts this even
though it's syntactically invalid.) 

> Now, my question is:
>does that apply to literal strings in an attribute as well? That is,
>if I'm making a mistake writing WIDTH=100%, would it make a difference 
>to write WIDTH="100%"?

Nope, \<TABLE WIDTH="100%"> is perfectly OK, as long as
the WIDTH attribute has declared value CDATA (which it
does, according to the current Tables draft from W3C).




--Joe English

  jenglish@crl.com
</message>
<message id="<449kc9$l13@priam.umcs.lublin.pl>" date="3021132617" seqno="10855">
From: Grzesiek Staniak \<webadm@urania.umcs.lublin.pl>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: % and + in Netscapified tags
Date: 26 Sep 1995 19:30:17 GMT
Organization: ZIO UMCS, Pl. Marii Curie-Sklodowskiej 1, PL 20-031 Lublin
Message-ID: <449kc9$l13@priam.umcs.lublin.pl>

Hello,

Just a simple question from a beginner. I understand that one of the 
mistakes Netscape made while "extending" HTML was to allow the signs 
"%" and "+" to appear in attributes of their new tags, while they 
should remain reserved for marking parameter entities and occurrence
specification in content models, respectively. Now, my question is:
does that apply to literal strings in an attribute as well? That is,
if I'm making a mistake writing WIDTH=100%, would it make a difference 
to write WIDTH="100%"? In the case of FONT things are of course more
difficult, a spelling like FONT +="2" not changing much.

Thanks,

--
  ___ ___ 
 / __/ __   Grzesiek Staniak                | Opinions expressed above 
| (_ \\__ \\  webadm@urania.umcs.lublin.pl    | do not reflect the views
 \\___|___/  http://www.lublin.pl/~gstaniak/ | of  my  employer  (UMCS)

</message>
<message id="<448u2b$a32@newsbf02.news.aol.com>" date="3021109771" seqno="10856">
From: jhawksdi@aol.com (JhawkSDI)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: IBM BookMaster, EBT DynaText
Date: 26 Sep 1995 09:09:31 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <448u2b$a32@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: \<NEWTNews.811708729.17122.mmorriso@plato.bdt.com>
Reply-To: jhawksdi@aol.com (JhawkSDI)

I work for a documentation house, Systems Documentation, Inc., that is an
IBM business partner. We have produced about 40 DynaText books from
BookMaster source over the last several years, using the "BookMaster" DTD
called SBKMBETA. At this point we can get a fairly clean (though by no
means painless) conversion, and the results (using style definitions
provided by IBM's Information Development group in Raleigh) are quite
pleasing. For some time now, IBM has been working on a new DTD, IBMIDDOC,
that will be less like BookMaster but will still support conversions to
and from BookMaster. We have not yet been able to work with that DTD (it's
still in the testing phase), but expect it to be available to contractors
in the next few months. I can talk with you about our experiences or refer
you to our ID contact in Raleigh.

John Hawkins
Edison, NJ
</message>
<message id="<kaj.hejer-2709951009050001@macusit21.uio.no>" date="3021181745" seqno="10857">
From: kaj.hejer@usit.uio.no (Kaj Hejer)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Balise info wanted
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:09:05 +0100
Organization: USIT, UiO
Message-ID: \<kaj.hejer-2709951009050001@macusit21.uio.no>

Hi! 

We are using Balise (from AIS) and are looking for mailinglists, WWW pages
and other internet resource covering Balise.

Thanks in advance for any help!


-Kaj             ,,,                        
                (O O)                       
------------oOO--(_)--OOo---------------------------------------------------
                                                  University of Oslo, Norway
                                               e-mail: kaj.hejer@usit.uio.no
                                     WWW: http://www.uio.no/~kajh/index.html
</message>
<message id="<44a55t$a6b@lava.ivg.com>" date="3021138629" seqno="10858">
From: bvette@ivg.com (Bea van Ette)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Dutch User Group
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 21:10:29 GMT
Organization: bART Internet Services
Message-ID: <44a55t$a6b@lava.ivg.com>

The E-mail address for the SGML User Group Holland is:
bvette@dds.nl

Our yearly conference will be held at 19 October in Amsterdam.


</message>
<message id="<4493pj$cr4@news.cict.fr>" date="3021115635" seqno="10859">
From: mb@piau ()
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: DSSSL information?
Date: 26 Sep 1995 14:47:15 GMT
Message-ID: <4493pj$cr4@news.cict.fr>
References: <43t2s0$8b1@mojo.eng.umd.edu>
Reply-To: manuel.bettini@avions.aerospatiale.fr

Can somebody send me a (simple illustrated) example of a DSSSL specification 
for the transformation and/or formatting of a simple document (with a simple
DTD)?
Thank you!

PS: I only have e-mail access (no Web access, no ftp access). 

*****************************************
*                                       *
*      /\\0/            o        0       *
*     O  \\\\         |        O--\\\\      *
*        //         |           / \\     *
* ===================================== *
* Manuel Bettini                        *
* manuel.bettini@avions.aerospatiale.fr *
* A/BIS/PA     BP D0621                 *
* 316, route de Bayonne                 *
* 31060 Toulouse Cedex 03 France        *
*****************************************
</message>
<message id="<44afr8$30b@toads.pgh.pa.us>" date="3021160744" seqno="10860">
From: tore@lis.pitt.edu (Tore Joergensen)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and OpenDoc
Date: 27 Sep 1995 03:19:04 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Message-ID: <44afr8$30b@toads.pgh.pa.us>
References: \<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com>

Marge T. Lorang (ir003188@interramp.com) wrote:
: The IBM people at this meeting matter-of-factly
: completely dismissed SGML by stating that OpenDoc supplants SGML
: completely.

: Now I am not well versed on OpenDoc but I had always thought that SGML and
: OpenDoc are _not_ mutually exclusive.  Further questioning reveals that
: several different medical informatics people have also dismissed SGML by
: saying that OpenDoc supplants the usefulness of SGML-based data. Could
: someone please comment as to whether SGML and OpenDoc are mutually
: exclusive? Any arguments that I could use to contradict this attitude
: would be helpful also. I was under the impression that one could have
: OpenDoc be just as proprietary as any other word processor format. I just
: can't help feeling that this is Token Ring and SNA all over again.

I am not an expert, but I would think SGML and OpenDoc could work very well
together. My impression was that OpenDoc's main purpose was to make 
it possible for server-programs to integrate with client-programs like
OLE under windows, just that it would work across networks and between
different operatingsystems (and be better/more flexible than OLE).
Why shouldn't the server-program grab its information from an
SGML-database? SGML gives the structure and long-term reliability, that
I would like to have for my text-database. If OpenDoc can't
cooperate with SGML, and if Microsoft is better at pushing OLE than
IBM/Apple/... is to push OpenDoc, then what? In my opinion, OS/2 is
far better than Win95, but I still think more people will buy Win95.
Is it a good idea to base important data on OpenDoc if it is that
proprietary? But, as I said, I don't think it is that proprietary. 
--
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
| Tore B. Joergensen      | e-mail : tore@lis.pitt.edu                |
| Centre Court Villa      | web    : http://www.pitt.edu/~tojst1      |
| 5535 Centre Avenue # 6  |                                           |
| Pgh, PA 15232, USA      | Norwegian MSIS-student at Univ. of Pgh.   |
+-------------------------+-------------------------------------------+
</message>
<message id="<44920u$u6p@noc.tor.hookup.net>" date="3021114059" seqno="10861">
From: mtimmerm@microstar.com (Matt Timmermans)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and OpenDoc
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:20:59 GMT
Organization: Microstar Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <44920u$u6p@noc.tor.hookup.net>
References: \<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com>

(ir003188@interramp.com (Marge T. Lorang))

|   ...
|   Now I am not well versed on OpenDoc but I had always thought that SGML and
|   OpenDoc are _not_ mutually exclusive.  Further questioning reveals that
|   several different medical informatics people have also dismissed SGML by
|   saying that OpenDoc supplants the usefulness of SGML-based data.
|   ...

OpenDoc is based on the Bento container model, a generic abstract format
for storing structured data.

It's not that SGML and OpenDoc are mutually exclusive, it's just that Bento
serves almost exactly the same role as SGML, and does a far better job of
it.

SGML still maintains the advantages of ISO standardization and a textual
format, but Bento has numerous technical advantages:

   1) The format itself is much simpler and much more robust, both
      physically and conceptually.

   2) It supports DAGs as easily as it supports heirarchies.

   3) The standard clearly specifies exactly where the standard abstraction
      ends.

   4) All user defined types are identified with ISO 9070 public
      identifiers, so there are no name conflicts when two documents are
      "merged".

   5) Also, any type of data can be stored in a Bento file, and _any_
      application can tell whether or not it knows how to process that
      data because all data is precisely typed and types are defined
      in universal scope.

That said, you can store SGML in Bento and you can store Bento in SGML, but
in the latter case you lose information, and in the former case you have to
make decisions that aren't supported by the standard (because SGML doesn't
do (2)).


\</Matt>

--------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Timmermans               | Phone:  +1 613 727-5696
Microstar Software Ltd.       | Fax:    +1 613 727-9491
34 Colonnade Rd. North        | BBS:    +1 613 727-5272
Nepean Ontario CANADA K2E-7J6 | E-mail: mtimmerm@microstar.com

</message>
<message id="<mltDFJyLs.53z@netcom.com>" date="3021174640" seqno="10862">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: mlt@netcom.com (Marcy Thompson)
Subject: Re: Opinions on Microsoft SGML Author for Word
Message-ID: \<mltDFJyLs.53z@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
References: <1995Sep22.214427.9132@arbortext.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 07:10:40 GMT
Sender: mlt@netcom12.netcom.com

John Ford writes:

>Having experienced the benefits of SGML editors first hand, even when 
>writing inside-out, I would not choose to write anything of importance 
>or complexity using an unstructured word processor.  

I could not agree with this more. 

Just today, I found myself writing a DTD, SGML Enabler style instance
and a Panorama style sheet for a document that I guess you could describe
as "a report about a document analysis session that turned out to be
something else, but definitely wasn't document analysis" (don't ask).
The thing is, that even though the computer I was using has a variety
of structure-less writing and page layout tools loaded on it, I would
far rather work in a structured environment, even if I have to build
the environment first.

The interesting thing is that once I had thought about what I wanted
in this report and built the DTD, I proceeded to write it from the
inside out: using a native SGMl authoring tool. 

I suppose most people can't just scare up a DTD when they want
to do something new, and I'm not really suggesting that they should.
But somehow, *my* writing style lends itself to using structured authoring. 
And it is well worth my while to spend a few minutes building the structure
to support what I want to do.

I have two general comments about this topic:

1. Don't kid yourself. Just because it looks like Word or Word Perfect,
   acts like Word or WP, and has "Word" or "Word Perfect" on the box,
   if you use SGML, *some*one has to make the information structured.
   Usually, this is the author. Writing a document with Word Perfect
   in an SGML environment means that you use WP in a totally different
   way than you used to.   

   And it can be harder for authors to make this change to a new way
   of organizing and "styling" their work if the tool pretends to be
   the same old tool. For some writers, it works better to give them
   an entirely new tool rather than asking them to use the old tool
   in a new way. For instance, people who plan to convert Word documents
   into SGML require their authors to use styles exclusively and
   with great rigor. If authors have been using Word in a totally
   style-less, format-driven way, this can be a hard road to hoe.
   I've seen people write little Visual Basic tools that sit on the
   Word toolbar and can be clicked to sheck whether the author is
   avoiding egregious errors in the use of the styles. It's a cute
   trick, and it works, but if authors are supposed to check their
   work all along, that looks to me like an indication that an
   Arbortext ADEPT Editor, an Author/Editor or some other SGML
   editor might just possibly have been a better choice.

   My point here is that far too many people decide to keep their
   current tools "to avoid disrupting the authors" without giving
   sufficient thought to how the use of the tool must change, to
   how they will educate, support and constrain the authors during
   and after the change, and to how disruptive this hidden change
   is likely to be.

2. Not everyone should use an SGML editor. Not everyone should use
   SGML. Not every group of authors can be gotten to change their
   tools and/or their way of working. Soemtimes it makes sense to
   apply structure later. Sometimes not. But choices about tools
   and processes need to be made consciously, with due thought and
   respect given to the needs of the authors. It is highly unlikely
   that my particular approach would work in all its detail for
   any other person on the planet, even Eliot, who was sitting on the
   other side of the room while I was busily writing a DTD for myself
   today. (I believe he was using the time to tweak the stylesheet he
   uses to produce proposals; I'm continually amazed at what nice
   pages he gets by using his SGML browser as a compostion engine...) 
   I know I surely couldn't work exactly the way he does. 
   And I shouldn't have to. It's critical to provide enough ways of
   working that all your authors can find something possible.

   When I worked at SoftQuad, I had to write troff macros to get my
   SGML to print pretty on the page. I *hate* writing troff macros,
   and I'm only marginally good at it. However. In return, I got
   SGML editing, reusable documents, and pretty damn nice pages. Now,
   I don't have to write troff macros anymore, but I would do it if
   for some reason it were the only way I could manage to use SGML
   to make my documents. (Just for the record, I use SoftQuad tools
   to create pages today, and they work well. I use the Enabler to
   get to Quark, and I use AppleScripts with the Enabler to get to RTF.)

   Most authors will make the same kinds of tradeoffs: give them
   advantages to *them* (and not to the downstream processes) and
   they will weather change, unsettling as it is. Give a large group
   of authors a few variations on the main theme so each person can
   find a way to work that satisfies their own needs and also gets
   to SGML. 

   And most important of all, don't make assumptions about authors.
   Lots of people insist on keeping Word "because our authors would
   never use an SGML editor" and then some authors see me using
   A/E on my laptop, and suddenly they want *that*. Oops, it's often
   too late by then. Someone made a decision on behalf of the authors
   thinking he was doing them a favor and it turns out not. Ask.
   And most important of all, listen.

   At the end of the day, some people should stick with Word and WP.
   Others should switch to writing SGML with teco (and I *don't* mean
   video teco!). There's an approach that will work for each person.
   But I learned a long time ago that it's inexcusably arrogant for me
   to assume that what *I* prefer is best for someone else. 

All I'm suggesting is that if you haven't tried native SGML authoring,
you ought to give it a try: some people find it's a *really* useful
way to work. Others don't, but it's not one of those things that you
find out about yourself without experience. 

Marcy
-- 
Marcy Thompson
work: marcy@passage.com
play: marcy@squirrel.com mlt@netcom.com

</message>
<message id="<013.01976803.APYL61A@prodigy.com>" date="3021218771" seqno="10863">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Date: 27 Sep 1995 19:26:11 GMT
From: Cheryl A Conway \<APYL61A@prodigy.com>
Message-ID: <013.01976803.APYL61A@prodigy.com>
Subject: Seeking SGML Position in the U.S.

Seeking SGML, HTML, or on-line documents work in the U.S.A.  -- in the New
York/New Jersey/Philadelphia area.

Have 9+ years experience working with:

-  U.S. SGML standards 
-  On-line documentation
-  Scanners/OCR/converting paper libraries to on-line ones.

For resume contact:

    Cheryl Conway
    112 South 5th Avenue
    Highland Park, NJ 08904-2607
    U.S.A.

Within U.S.: +1 908 572 5453.

Sincerely,

Cheryl Conway
apyl61a@prodigy.com
</message>
<message id="<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com>" date="3021073322" seqno="10864">
From: ir003188@interramp.com (Marge T. Lorang)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML and OpenDoc
Date: 26 Sep 1995 03:02:02 GMT
Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link
Message-ID: \<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com>

I know that parts of this topic were discussed on c.t.SGML previously
(?1-2 years ago?) but at the time I didn't have a need to follow the
discussion.  Now I do :-(.

Our laboratory is converting much of our information over to SGML using a
variety of tools. Something happened recently however that made some of
the administration people want to reevaluate what we are doing. I was
wondering if the c.t.SGML mavens could provide some help with this
dilemma.

Our I.S. vendor is "partnering" with IBM to provide integrated solutions
to problems common in our industry (medical applications). Our I.S. vendor
knows of the enthusiasm that our lab has in regards to SGML-based
approaches and has begun to evaluate SGML applications for themselves. 
When our I.S. vendor had a meeting with the IBM representatives, they
mentioned SGML as a possible enabling approach for the problems they were
trying to solve.  The IBM people at this meeting matter-of-factly
completely dismissed SGML by stating that OpenDoc supplants SGML
completely.

Now I am not well versed on OpenDoc but I had always thought that SGML and
OpenDoc are _not_ mutually exclusive.  Further questioning reveals that
several different medical informatics people have also dismissed SGML by
saying that OpenDoc supplants the usefulness of SGML-based data. Could
someone please comment as to whether SGML and OpenDoc are mutually
exclusive? Any arguments that I could use to contradict this attitude
would be helpful also. I was under the impression that one could have
OpenDoc be just as proprietary as any other word processor format. I just
can't help feeling that this is Token Ring and SNA all over again.

Your comments are welcome. TIA

Marge T. Lorang
m_lorang@neurocrine.com
</message>
<message id="<44bjrm$aoh@noc.tor.hookup.net>" date="3021197856" seqno="10865">
From: mtimmerm@microstar.com (Matt Timmermans)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and OpenDoc
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:37:36 GMT
Organization: Microstar Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <44bjrm$aoh@noc.tor.hookup.net>
References: \<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com> <44920u$u6p@noc.tor.hookup.net>

As requested, I've appended the Bento design overview here:

Other official bento (and OpenDoc) information can be found at ftp.cil.org:

/pub/cilabs/tech/bento/Design-Overview.txt -- the document appended to this
article.

/pub/cilabs/tech/bento/Bento-brief.txt -- brief description of Bento

/pub/cilabs/tech/bento/Bento-Spec/postscript/*.ps -- complete Bento
specification.


Since Bento is only a small part of OpenDoc, and since the goals of OpenDoc
as a whole is not meant to solve the same problem as SGML, all of the Bento
documentation is long on technicalities and short on philosophy.  It is
enough to remember that on the technical (rather than political) side of
things, Bento and SGML have effectively identical mandates.

Also, you won't find the rigour here that you'd get from ISO.


Bento Design Overview
`````````````````````
 
This file provides an overview of the Bento design.  It describes
the design  more from the API perspective than the format perspective.
However,  most of the concepts also apply to the format level.  In
some respects  the format is simpler than the API, but it difficult
to understand without first understanding the API functionality it is
intended to support.
 
Bento Entities
==============
 
The easiest way to begin understanding the Bento design is probably to
review the entities that the API manipulates.
 
Primary Entities
================
 
The most important entities in the Bento design are containers, objects,
properties, values, and types.
 
Every object is in some container.  An object consists of a set of
properties.  The properties are not in any particular order.    Each
property consists of a sequence of values, indexed from 1 to n.  Every
object must have at least one property, and that property must have at
least one value.  Each value has a type; several values of the same
property may have the same type.  The type of a value is unrelated to
its index.  Each value consists of a variable length sequence of bytes.
 
Now let us look at these primary entities in more detail.
 
Containers
----------
 
All Bento objects are stored in containers.  Bento knows very little
about a container beyond the objects in it.  However, the container
itself is an object, and can have properties, so applications can
specify further information about the container if they wish.
 
Containers are often files, but they can also be many other forms of
storage.  For example, we are already planning to support the following
types of containers: blocks of memory, the clipboard, network messages,
and Bento values.  Undoubtedly other types of containers will be useful
as well.
 
Objects
-------
 
Each Bento object has a persistent ID which is unique within its
container.  Other than that, objects donŐt really exist independent of
their properties.  An object contains no information beyond what is
stored in its properties.
 
Properties
----------
 
A property defines a role for a value.  Properties are like field names
in a record, except they can be added freely to an object, and their
names are globally unique, so that applications can understand them.
Properties are distinct from types.
 
For example, a string might be used for the name of an object, the
author of the object, a comment, etc  These different uses would be
indicated by different properties.
 
Conversely, the string might be in ASCII, Unicode, or some other
international string representation.  These different formats would not
be indicated by the property, but by the type (see below).
 
Values
------
 
Values are where the data is actually stored.  The data for a value can
be stored anywhere in a container.  In fact, it can be broken up into
any number of separate pieces, and the pieces can be stored anywhere.
(See the discussion of continued values below.)
 
Values  may range in size from 0  bytes to 2^32 bytes (if you have that
much storage).   Bento is optimized for ŇlargeÓ values, such as streams
of formatted text, graphics metafiles, etc.
 
Types
-----
 
The type of a value describes the format of that value.  Types record
the structure of a value, whether it is  compressed, what its byte
ordering is, etc.
 
To continue the example above, the type of a string value would indicate
the alphabet, whether it was null terminated, and possibly other
information (such as the intended language).  It might also indicate
that the string was stored in a compressed form, and would indicate the
compression technique, and the dictionary if one was required.  If the
string used multi-byte characters, and the byte-ordering was not defined
by the alphabet, the type would indicate the byte-ordering within the
characters.
 
Secondary Entities
==================
 
There are several additional entities that play supporting roles in the
Bento design.  These entities are important to fully understand how
Bento works, but they do not signficantly change the picture given
above.
 
Type and property descriptions
------------------------------
 
The property associated with a value is a reference  to a property
description.  Similarly, the type is a reference to a type description.
These type and property descriptions are objects, and their IDs are
drawn from the same name-space as other object IDs.
 
Many type and property descriptions will simply consist of the globally
unique name of the type or property.  To continue the example above
further, the type of a string of 7-bit ASCII, not compressed or
otherwise transformed, would simply be described by a globally unique
name.  This would allow applications to recognize the type.
 
Reference to type and property descriptions are distinct from references
to ordinary objects in the API to allow language type checking to catch
errors in the manipulation of type and property references.  However,
type and property references can still be passed to the object and value
operations, so that value manipulation can be done on types and
properties as well as normal objects.
 
Globally unique names
---------------------
 
Globally unique names are simply strings that follow certain
conventions.  They begin with a registered naming authority, and have
additional segments, each of which is unique in the context of the
previous segments.
 
The most common globally unique names will be generated by system
vendors or commercial application developers, and may be registered.
However, many names will be generated by local developers to record
their local types and properties.  To meet this need, the naming rules
allow for local creation of unregistered unique names.
 
IDs and accessors
-----------------
 
Each object is assigned a persistent ID that is unique within the
container in which the object is created.  These IDs are never reused
once they have been assigned, so even if an object is deleted, its ID
will never be reassigned.
 
In the API types, properties, and objects can be referred to using their
IDs, but for convenience, they are usually referred to using accessors
provided by the API.  Since  IDs are only unique within a container,
they must always be used with an explicit container, while the accessors
include an implicit container reference.
 
Accessors are used to refer to containers and values.  Accessors  are
only unique within a given session, so they cannot be stored in values
as reference to other values.  IDs must always be used for persistent
references.
 
Dynamic values
---------------
 
Bento needs to support external references from one container to
another, or to other entities such as files, etc.  It does this through
dynamic values.  These are values whose types indicate that they contain
a description of the real value, rather than the actual data.
 
Except for the indirect characteristic of their types, indirect values are
created and stored exactly like normal values.  However, when they are
accessed, a handler is called to resolve the description to an actual
value.

Value segments
--------------
 
To support interleaving and other uses that require breaking a value up
into pieces, Bento allows a value to consist of multiple segments stored
at different locations in the container.  These segments are not visible
at the API, which glues them together to create a single stream of
bytes.
 
Handlers
========
 
Handlers are pieces of code called by the Bento library to do specific
jobs, but not part of the Bento library as such.  Functions are put into
handlers rather than the library to make the library more portable, and
also to provide a standard way to extend the library.
 
Handlers come in two main forms: container handlers and value handlers.
In addition, the API uses special handlers for reporting errors and
allocating and deallocating memory.
 
Actual I/O to containers is always done using container handlers, to
provide platform independence.  Container handlers provide stream I/O,
plus a few special interfaces for reading and writing specific parts of
the container format.
 
The many different types of containers mentioned in the first section
are not actually implemented in the Bento library.  Instead, the library
simply calls different types of  handlers, all of which provide the same
interface.  These handlers map I/O to the underlying storage in a way
that depends on the container type.
 
Value handlers are only required for values that require special support
for access.  For example, a value that is compressed on writing and
decompressed on reading would need a special handler.  Value handlers
have the option of providing specialized operations to manipulate the
value, either instead of or in addition to the standard value
operations.


\</Matt>

--------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Timmermans               | Phone:  +1 613 727-5696
Microstar Software Ltd.       | Fax:    +1 613 727-9491
34 Colonnade Rd. North        | BBS:    +1 613 727-5272
Nepean Ontario CANADA K2E-7J6 | E-mail: mtimmerm@microstar.com

</message>
<message id="<44bse9$2f3d@trout.ab.umd.edu>" date="3021206409" seqno="10866">
From: sraffert@trout.ab.umd.edu (Steve Rafferty)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Readme.1st ?
Date: 27 Sep 1995 12:00:09 -0400
Organization: University of Maryland at Baltimore
Message-ID: <44bse9$2f3d@trout.ab.umd.edu>

While browsing at Borders' the other day (actually looking
for _The Implementer's Guide to SGML_, but no matter)
I came across a book on SGML entitled:

Readme.1st (with some subtitle)

Has anyone seen this book?  The production values seemed
to be pretty good, but I'm interested in opinions with
respect to content, usefulness, etc.

Thanks for any help.

Steve

-- 
  /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
  /_/       Steve Rafferty, Systems Dept., Health Sciences Library       _/
  /_/        111 S. Greene St., Baltimore, MD 21201  410-706-1814        _/
  /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
</message>
<message id="<5udI6lcyZ2B@dosco.venture.de>" date="3021206220" seqno="10867">
Date: 27 Sep 1995 16:57:00 +0100
From: zadow@dosco.venture.de (Guenter von Zadow)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Message-ID: <5udI6lcyZ2B@dosco.venture.de>
Subject: SGML course in Heidelberg

DOSCO Document Systems Consulting GmbH is running a
vendor-independent three day course on SGML in
German language. It takes place in the
IBM Scientific Center in Heidelberg, Germany,
from November 8 to 10, 1995. The instructors are
Robert Erfle and Guenter von Zadow.
 
The course gives an introduction to the concept
of SGML. It includes the SGML Syntax, a classification
of SGML tools and an overview on the possibilities
and limitations of today's SGML applications. 	

Here are some higlights:
  The SGML concept 
   - Positioning of SGML as markup language
   - Contents, structure, layout of a document
   - A simple example
   - SGML database
   - Benefits of SGML, sample applications
   - Other document standards
  SGML Language
   - Syntax of DTD
   - Exercise: Parsing
   - SGML Declaration
   - Figures, tables, formulas
   - FOSI, DSSSL
  SGML Tools and applications
   - Document analysis
   - SGML editors
   - Elements of a typical application
   - Types of SGML tools
   - Demonstration of SGML tools
   - Execise: Design of a DTD
   - Positioning of HTML relative to SGML
	
If you are interested please let us know and we will provide
you with additional information (in German):
   Phone: +49 6221 148611
   Fax:   +49 6221 148619
   email: zadow@dosco.venture.de

Guenter von Zadow

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##
</message>
<message id="<DFKtyu.26K@midway.uchicago.edu>" date="3021215285" seqno="10868">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: rkrug@ellis.uchicago.edu (Robert Krug)
Subject: Re: Readme.1st ?
Message-ID: \<DFKtyu.26K@midway.uchicago.edu>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator)
Reply-To: rkrug@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: The University of Chicago
References: <44bse9$2f3d@trout.ab.umd.edu>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 18:28:05 GMT

[ request for info. on Readme.1st deleted. ]

I just bought this book, and it does seem very good. It starts out slowly,
with much information on why one would want to use SGML, and builds this
into a coherent structure on how to use it. As its subtitle---For Authors
and Editors---implies, it may not help the tech. staff too much, but it
appears to be a wonderful book. 

It purports not to "achieve simplicity by blurring vital distinctions or
ommiting key concepts," and seems to do a good job of this. However, this
raises a question that I was about to post here anyway.

The book implies (although does not seem to claim directly) that an SGML
document should be in ASCII. This I cannot believe. SGML is defined in ISO
8879, and the international character sets are defined in ISO 8879-x. Why
would anyone in Europe (or anywhere else) want to use ASCII? This has me
confused.

Robert

D
D
8879, and ISO8879-x
</message>
<message id="<CRM.95Sep27163033@phaser.ebt.com>" date="3021222633" seqno="10869">
From: crm@phaser.ebt.com (Christopher R. Maden)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: IETF Draft for SGML Catalog Exchange
Date: 27 Sep 1995 20:30:33 GMT
Organization: Electronic Book Technologies, Inc.
Message-ID: \<CRM.95Sep27163033@phaser.ebt.com>
References: <9509212231.AA11067@fly.hiwaay.net>
In-reply-to: Len Bullard's message of 21 Sep 1995 17:31:31 -0500

In article <9509212231.AA11067@fly.hiwaay.net> Len Bullard
\<cbullard@hiwaay.net> writes:

   Those of you who are interested in SGML and its particular
   application on the Internet are *STRONGLY* encouraged to review the
   following IETF draft:

   ftp://ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mimesgml-exch-00.txt

This is Don Stinchfield's proposal for transfer of SGML documents over
the Internet using SGML Open catalogs.  Anyone "interested in SGML and
its particular application on the Internet" is also encouraged to see
Ed Levinson's proposal for the Multipart/Related MIME type:

ftp://ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mimesgml-related-02.txt

Ed's and James Clark's proposal for a Message/External-Body type:

ftp://ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mimesgml-access-cid-00.txt

and Ed's proposal for transfer of SGML over e-mail using those two
methods:

ftp://ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mimesgml-encap-01.txt

Abstracts of all four I-Ds can be found at

http://www.ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/ids.by.wg/mimesgml.html

To subscribe to the mailing list of the MIME-SGML working group, send
e-mail with an irrelevant subject to majordomo@ebt.com with a two-line
body:

subscribe sgml-internet me@my.org
end

(where "me@my.org" would be replaced by your own e-mail address).

Thanks,
Chris, majordomo administrator, sgml-internet
--
Christopher R. Maden     Electronic Book Technologies, Inc.
Applications Consultant  One Richmond Square
http://www.ebt.com/      Providence, Rhode Island 02906 USA
+1.401.421.9550 (voice)  crm@ebt.com  +1.401.521.2030 (fax)
</message>
<message id="<44ciqq$gks@newsbf02.news.aol.com>" date="3021229338" seqno="10870">
From: isipres@aol.com (ISI Pres)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and OpenDoc
Date: 27 Sep 1995 18:22:18 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <44ciqq$gks@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: \<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com>
Reply-To: isipres@aol.com (ISI Pres)

Here's a thought you might find useful.  One should always be a bit
suspicious of the assertion that anything "supplants" anything.  It
usually means one of two things; either the speaker has a very mercenary
agenda, served only if the listener accepts the supplantation, or the
speaker doesn't understand the nature of data and knowledge encoding
protocols and is speaking our of ignorance.  Frankly, having dealt with
IBM for 30 years, I would suspect both.

Indeed, an encoding protocol can be supplanted only when it is no longer
capable of capturing and delivering the level of information and access
demanded by the using public (in this case, applications).  Usually, this
happens only when the protocol in question cannot evolve and grow as needs
grow.  In SGML's case,  this would be hard to imagine given that the
protocol itself is merely a lexicon for the development of targeted
protocols aimed at each user's need set.  Until we have exhausted our
ability to conceive and develop data models and universes, we cannot even
begin to measure the limits of SGML's ability to serve our needs.

It would seem to me that the very search for something to supplant SGML,
or any other generic and widely-accepted protocol, can be severly
destructive to the information world's attempt to find common ground for
users and providers.  The investment required to support a "hot new
protocol" detracts from the total available funding on which the
information vendor community must base its efforts.  Without a high level
of development and product availability, no protocol is going to be worth
much.

So I would strongly suggest that you continue with your efforts to model,
capture and gain value from the data with which you work.  SGML is a fine
basis for the capture and if, in God's infinite wisdom, it is "supplanted"
at sometime by an offering from IBM et al, take heart; you have spent your
time capturing data in what is arguably the most effective and
controllable basis from which to convert your data into the supplantor. 
Moreover, what you will have learned about modeling and using complex
knowledge-based data will serve you well no matter what the future holds.

Best regards,

Barry Schaeffer
INFORMATION STRATEGIES, INC.
Sterling, VA
bschaeff@strategies.com
</message>
<message id="<00996F84A0C7C120.20C00042@dpsl.co.uk>" date="3021100686" seqno="10871">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Date: 26 Sep 95 10:38:06 GMT
Message-ID: <00996F84A0C7C120.20C00042@dpsl.co.uk>
Supersedes: <00996F84A0C71C20.20C00042@dpsl.co.uk>
From: Pam Gennusa \<plg@dpsl.co.uk>
Subject: SGML Europe '96 - Call for Participation

			CALL FOR PARTICIPATION

The following is an excerpt from the "Call for Participation" for 
SGML Europe '96 to be held the week of 12th May 1996 in Munich. 
If you would like to receive a printed version or would like to be 
put on the mailing list for the advance program mailing, please send 
mail to:	 Munich96@aol.com

This year, the theme of the conference is:

		And this answer is........

			SGML


As readers of this newsgroup, you know that SGML is more than a standard. It
supports the reuse and control of information; reduces dependence on software 
and hardware systems; facilitates the development of multi-media products; 
separates content from process; is an important tool for all aspects of 
information management; and more. 

This year, SGML Europe, the comprehensive annual conference on SGML,  
concentrates on the role SGML plays in an organization's decision to change 
how they produce, manage, or deploy their information. It will also focus on 
the evolution in business processes brought about by the adoption of SGML.

We are looking for presentations that describe how SGML is the answer as part 
of a business or publishing solution.

	CALL FOR PARTICIPATION IN THE SGML EUROPE '96 FACULTY.

Do you have experience with SGML as the answer? 

This year we are looking for users or developers to participate as the 
faculty of the conference. Faculty members may give a presentation and/or 
lead a workshop. Presentations may focus on management/business, 
introductory, application, or advanced technical issues. The most 
important criterion is that faculty members are willing to share an 
idea that was important to them or their organization when considering, 
planning, or using SGML.

Presentations may answer a variety of questions. Here are some samples, 
but don't be limited by the list - they're just examples: 

- Why did you decide on SGML? What influenced your decision?
- How did you convince management?
- What major idea occurred to you while implementing SGML?
- What technical obstacles did you overcome?
- How has SGML helped in the evolution of your business processes?
- What problems have been answered in part or in whole by SGML?
- Was SGML the cause of change or the effect of it in your company?
- What would you do differently next time?
- How did you improve your initial SGML application?
- How do you plan to expand your SGML application?

In other words, what silver bullets do you have to share? What blindingly 
simple, or not so simple, ideas changed the way you do business, the way you 
develop documentation or other information products. How did SGML support 
that change?

What made SGML the answer for you or your organization?

If you are interested in being part of the Faculty at SGML Europe '96, 
submit:
	- title of presentation
	- author's name & contact information, including fax and email 
		address, if available
	- the presenter's biography (approx 50 words)

	One or more of the following:
	- an abstract of the presentation (approx 100 words)*
	- an abstract of the workshop that might be derived from the 
		presentation (approx 100 words)*
	- an abstract of a full-day seminar (6 hours), educational in nature, 
		to be presented on the Monday or Tuesday preceding the 
		conference proper (approx 100 words accompanied by a 
		course outline)**

* Please specify if presentation works best at 30 or 45 minutes in length. 
  Workshops should last approx 2.5 hours. Although not all presenters will 
  give workshops, please submit workshop ideas, if applicable, as we would 
  like to be able to expand on as many presentations in workshops as possible. 
  Workshops should be designed to be highly participatory. Abstracts for 
  workshops not accompanied by presentations are also welcomed.

**Please specify whether the seminar is aimed at a technical or management 
  audience.


Send these to the attention of: SGML Europe '96 Programme Committee:

Database Publishing Systems Ltd
608 Delta Business Park
Great Western Way
Swindon, Wiltshire SN5 7XF, UK
Phone: +44 1793 512 515
Fax: +44 1973 512 516
Email: plg@dpsl.co.uk

or 

Graphic Communications Association
100 Daingerfield Road
Alexandria, VA 22314, USA
Phone: +1 703 519 8160
Fax: +1 703 548 2867
Email: Munich96@aol.com

Deadline for abstract submissions - 20th October 1995

PRELIMINARY SCHEDULE

Sunday,  12 May
7:30
Seminar Registration
9:00 - 17:00
Seminars 

Monday, 13 May
7:30
Advanced Seminar Registration
9:00 - 17:00
Advanced Seminars
and SGML Open Meetings
12:00 - 17:00
Early  Conference Registration

Tuesday, 14 May
7:30
Registration
9:00
Opening plenary
12:00
Luncheon and Software Gallery
14:00
Break-out sessions
17:00
Sessions adjourn, SGML User's Group Meeting
18:00
SGML Users' Group Meeting adjourns
19:00
Sofware Gallery closes


Wednesday, 15 May
9:00
Break-out sessions
12:00
Luncheon and Software Gallery
14:00
Workshops
17:00
Sessions adjourn
19:00
Software Gallery closes

Thursday, 16 May
9:00
Workshops
12:00
Luncheon
13:30
Closing Plenary
15:00
Conference adjourns

CALL FOR EXHIBITORS

Software products are critical to the implementation of SGML. The Software 
Gallery at SGML Europe has become an integral part of the conference series. 
Each year more and more developers are choosing SGML Europe as the opportunity 
for hands-on display of products that support the application of SGML and 
related standards. 

If your organization is interested in participating in the SGML Europe '96 
Software Gallery, contact Chris Ziener or Julie Morrison at GCA no later 
than 12 April 1996. 


REGISTRATION INFORMATION

The registration fees include all conference materials, luncheons, 
receptions and software gallery. The registration fees do not include hotel 
accommodations. All accommodation reservations are the responsibility of 
the attendee.
				Conference	If registered 
	  	 		Fees		by 30 November '95
				----------	------------------
	GCA Member		$690		$615
	Nonmember		$895		$820
	Qualifying User Groups	$805		$730
	Companion/Spouse	$150

For registration form: contact the GCA by phone +1 703 519 8174 or 
					  fax   +1 703 548 2867 or 
					  email Munich96@aol.com

ALL REGISTRATION FEES MUST BE PAID AT TIME OF REGISTRATION. ALL FEES MUST BE IN 
U.S. DOLLARS.

VENUE

SGML Europe '96 takes place at the Munich Park Hilton Hotel, Munich, Germany. 
The Munich Park Hilton is set in a quiet location close to the English Garden, 
the heart of Munich, within easy reach of the shopping and business centres. 
Hotel address: Am Tucherpark 7, 80538 Munich. Telephone: +49 89 3845 0. 
FAX: +49 89 3845 1845.

More details on the city of Munich, the hotel, and transportation options 
will provided with confirmation of conference registration. 

HOTEL ACCOMMODATIONS

All hotel accommodations are the responsibility of the SGML Europe '96 
attendee. A number of rooms have been reserved at the Munich Park Hilton. 
The negotiated conference rates are: 
	- Single DM 190
	- Double DM 210
To make accommodation reservations contact the hotel at +49 89 38 45 0 and 
identify yourself as an SGML Europe attendee to qualify for the conference 
discount.

All hotel reservations must be made prior to 12 April 1996. After that date, 
conference rates and availability cannot be guaranteed.




</message>
<message id="<DFKKs2.2Gz@cwi.nl>" date="3021203377" seqno="10872">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: jasper@geranium.cwi.nl
Subject: Conditional, Structured SGML ?
Message-ID: \<DFKKs2.2Gz@cwi.nl>
Sender: news@cwi.nl (The Daily Dross)
Organization: CWI -- Centre for Mathematics and Computer Science
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 15:09:37 GMT

Conditional Structured Markup Language?

There are many markup languages in existence, and new ones are still emerging.
In many software engineering projects, there is a need to produce some subset
of the following documents:

   *  A technical report describing a system or language
   *  An extended abstract of the project for publication in conference
      proceedings
   *  A journal publication
   *  A documented version of the source code
   *  A user manual
   *  A reference manual
   *  A frequently asked questions list
   *  A document describing the planning of the project
   *  A hypertext version of the documents mentioned above

In order to produce these documents in an efficient way, we would like to use a
markup language with the following properties:

   *  Translatability so several existing languages, including at least LaTeX
     and HTML (c.f. html2latex, latexinfo, linuxdoc-SGML)
   *  Toolsupport on at least UNIX systems (preferably also Macintosh and PC)
   *  Free availability (c.f. GNU)
   *  An instance of SGML (to profit from future tool support)
   *  Professional quality layout for paper versions (c.f. TeX, LaTeX)
   *  Conditional text (views), preferably guarded by expressions in
     propositional logic (c.f. the C prepocessor, and to a lesser extent LaTeX)
   *  The ability to specify both physical and logical structure (e.g., for
     efficiency reasons, html text of a section may be split over several
     physical pages, whereas the corresponding latex text might as well be in a
     single file)
   *  The ability to package everything in a single file for easy shipping
     (c.f. Latex2e)
   *  The ability to reorder pieces of text for a particular view (c.f. web and
     noweb, however without the preoccupation with program documentation and
     without losing track as easy)
   *  Minimal dependence of the implementation on external tools. That is, if
     any of the tools that would concievably support the translations (such as
     latex2html, html2latex, html2text, bibtex, latex, html-browser, web, pic,
     tpic, noweb, cpp) is not available, a sensible default action should be
     taken instead
   *  Sections and subsections should not have hard-coded numers, like in LaTeX
     and HTML. Instead, the topmost level (chapter, section,.. ) should be
     decided when translating to some physical form

As always, the challenge is in the combination of the features. We would call
this language CSML, Conditional Structured Markup Language, if it does not
already exist.

The closest we have found up till now are linuxdoc-SGML, which is based on
QWERTZ. Our findings:

   *  QWERTZ supports web-like features (not sure that linuxdoc-SGML does this
     too)
   *  linuxdoc-SGML supports HTML generation (QWERTZ does not seem to have tool
     support for this).
   *  Neither of them seems to be able to produce views, we could use the
     C-preprocessor for that.
   *  Neither is able to produce relative subsectioning.
   *  The support for describing physical structure seems to be limited.

Before attempting to realize such a system in a quick-dirty way (re-using of
course HTML, LaTeX2e and the existing translators between them), we would like
to know whether a close approximation (say 90% of the requirements) already
exists.

Please answer in email to jasper@cwi.nl. We will post a summary of the most
appropriate systems (if any).

Pum Walters and Jasper Kamperman (jasper@cwi.nl)
</message>
<message id="<812273286snz@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>" date="3021262086" seqno="10873">
From: Martin Bryan \<mtbryan@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Chemical entity set
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 07:28:06 GMT
Organization: The SGML Centre
Message-ID: <812273286snz@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>
References: <449qnt$dd@vishnu.jussieu.fr>
Reply-To: mtbryan@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk

In article <449qnt$dd@vishnu.jussieu.fr>
           patt@ais.berger-levrault.fr "Pierre Attar" writes:

> I've heard about a new ISO entity set for chemical characters such as 
> triple horizontal bar (triple bond) and so forth ...
> 
> I've not see any reference on it in the chemical DTD under 
> development in the US.
> 
> So, does anyone knows where I can find it ? It's definition and its graphical 
> representation ?
> 
The ISO chemical character set, ISOchem, is supposed to be published as
Part 13 of ISO 9573 which, as far as I know, has not made the bookstands yet.
The latest version I have is:


\<!-- (C) International Organization for Standardization 1991.
     Permission to copy in any form is granted for use with
     conforming SGML systems and applications as defined in
     ISO 8879, provided this notice is included in all copies.
-->
\<!-- Character entity set. Typical invocation:
     \<!ENTITY % ISOCHEM  PUBLIC
             "ISO 9573-13:1991//ENTITIES Chemistry //EN">
              %ISOCHEM;
-->
\<!ENTITY bensen     SDATA "[bensen  ]"--bensen ring-->
\<!ENTITY bensena    SDATA "[bensena ]"--bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY bensenb    SDATA "[bensenb ]"--bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY bensenc    SDATA "[bensenc ]"--bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY bensend    SDATA "[bensend ]"--bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY bensene    SDATA "[bensene ]"--bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY bensenf    SDATA "[bensenf ]"--bensen ring. one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY benseng    SDATA "[benseng ]"--bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY bensenh    SDATA "[bensenh ]"--bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY benseni    SDATA "[benseni ]"--bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY bensenj    SDATA "[bensenj ]"--bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY bensenk    SDATA "[bensenk ]"--bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY bensenl    SDATA "[bensenl ]"--bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY bensenm    SDATA "[bensenm ]"--bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY bensenn    SDATA "[bensenn ]"--bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY benseno    SDATA "[benseno ]"--bensen ring, three double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY bensenp    SDATA "[bensenp ]"--bensen ring, three double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY bensenq    SDATA "[bensenq ]"--bensen ring, circle-->
\<!ENTITY hbensen    SDATA "[hbensen ]"--horizontal bensen ring-->
\<!ENTITY hbensena   SDATA "[hbensena]"--horizontal bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenb   SDATA "[hbensenb]"--horizontal bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenc   SDATA "[hbensenc]"--horizontal bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY hbensend   SDATA "[hbensend]"--horizontal bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY hbensene   SDATA "[hbensene]"--horizontal bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenf   SDATA "[hbensenf]"--horizontal bensen ring, one double binding-->
\<!ENTITY hbenseng   SDATA "[hbenseng]"--horizontal bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenh   SDATA "[hbensenh]"--horizontal bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbenseni   SDATA "[hbenseni]"--horizontal bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenj   SDATA "[hbensenj]"--horizontal bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenk   SDATA "[hbensenk]"--horizontal bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenl   SDATA "[hbensenl]"--horizontal bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenm   SDATA "[hbensenm]"--horizontal bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenn   SDATA "[hbensenn]"--horizontal bensen ring, two double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbenseno   SDATA "[hbenseno]"--horizontal bensen ring, three double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenp   SDATA "[hbensenp]"--horizontal bensen ring, three double bindings-->
\<!ENTITY hbensenq   SDATA "[hbensenq]"--horizontal bensen ring, circle-->

-- 
Martin Bryan @ The SGML Centre, Churchdown, Glos. GL3 2PU, UK (+44 1452 714029)
</message>
<message id="<44cdr4$cnc@wombatnet.batnet.com>" date="3021224228" seqno="10874">
From: Doc Searls \<searls@batnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Who's doing good SGML on the Web
Date: 27 Sep 1995 20:57:08 GMT
Organization: Searls, Inc.
Message-ID: <44cdr4$cnc@wombatnet.batnet.com>

I'm a rookie here, so forgive me if these questions have obvious 
answers.  If they do, just point me in the right directions.

1) Who, if anybody at this point, is making massive documentation 
available in SGML form for access over the Web?
2) What broadly characterizes doing this well versus doing this poorly? 
By "well" I mean "useful" in an obvious, or at least an intuitive, way.
3) Are Macintosh SGML editors (or other tools) available?

I have more questions, but these are a good start.

Thanks,

Doc



</message>
<message id="<truly.1604.00143E66@lunemere.com>" date="3021221671" seqno="10875">
From: truly@lunemere.com (Truly Donovan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and OpenDoc
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:14:31
Organization: La Lunemere
Message-ID: \<truly.1604.00143E66@lunemere.com>
References: \<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com> <44ciqq$gks@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

In article <44ciqq$gks@newsbf02.news.aol.com> isipres@aol.com (ISI Pres) writes:

>Here's a thought you might find useful.  One should always be a bit
>suspicious of the assertion that anything "supplants" anything.  It
>usually means one of two things; either the speaker has a very mercenary
>agenda, served only if the listener accepts the supplantation, or the
>speaker doesn't understand the nature of data and knowledge encoding
>protocols and is speaking our of ignorance.  Frankly, having dealt with
>IBM for 30 years, I would suspect both.

>Indeed, an encoding protocol can be supplanted only when it is no longer
>capable of capturing and delivering the level of information and access
>demanded by the using public (in this case, applications).  Usually, this
>happens only when the protocol in question cannot evolve and grow as needs
>grow.  In SGML's case,  this would be hard to imagine given that the
>protocol itself is merely a lexicon for the development of targeted
>protocols aimed at each user's need set.  Until we have exhausted our
>ability to conceive and develop data models and universes, we cannot even
>begin to measure the limits of SGML's ability to serve our needs.

>It would seem to me that the very search for something to supplant SGML,
>or any other generic and widely-accepted protocol, can be severly
>destructive to the information world's attempt to find common ground for
>users and providers.  The investment required to support a "hot new
>protocol" detracts from the total available funding on which the
>information vendor community must base its efforts.  Without a high level
>of development and product availability, no protocol is going to be worth
>much.

>So I would strongly suggest that you continue with your efforts to model,
>capture and gain value from the data with which you work.  SGML is a fine
>basis for the capture and if, in God's infinite wisdom, it is "supplanted"
>at sometime by an offering from IBM et al, take heart; you have spent your
>time capturing data in what is arguably the most effective and
>controllable basis from which to convert your data into the supplantor. 
>Moreover, what you will have learned about modeling and using complex
>knowledge-based data will serve you well no matter what the future holds.

I think that the references to IBM here and in the post this responds to 
might be misconstrued.  What one IBM group told one customer or group of 
customers under one set of circumstances does not represent an IBM position on 
the subject of SGML.  My observation from a medium distance is that SGML is 
alive and well in IBM, where they are moving their own premiere publishing 
application to SGML and recommending and developing SGML-based application 
solutions for their customers.

Truly Donovan  

</message>
<message id="<44ecga$722@news.medusa.es>" date="3021288394" seqno="10876">
From: duende \<sidocor@super.medusa.es>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Filtering from protec format to SGML
Date: 28 Sep 1995 14:46:34 GMT
Organization: Medusa
Message-ID: <44ecga$722@news.medusa.es>

Hi:

	We are searching for any kind of filtering system that allow
the conversion from protec format (press system) to SGML. I have
heard protec format has a philosophy next to SGML, I mean, text is
marked up with special tagging.

	Please, if someone knows any kind of application that perform
this kind of conversion, please keep in touch at e-mail address:

	sidocor@super.medusa.es

	
	Thanks in advance,






	Víctor

</message>
<message id="<9509281307.AA28900@fly.hiwaay.net>" date="3021282475" seqno="10877">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Date: 28 Sep 1995 08:07:55 -0500
Message-ID: <9509281307.AA28900@fly.hiwaay.net>
From: Len Bullard \<cbullard@hiwaay.net>
References: <9509212231.AA11067@fly.hiwaay.net> \<CRM.95Sep27163033@phaser.ebt.com>
Subject: Re: IETF Draft for SGML Catalog Exchange

[Chris Maden]

|   Anyone "interested in SGML and its particular application on the
|   Internet" is also encouraged to see Ed Levinson's proposal for the
|   Multipart/Related MIME type:

Yes, and thanks to Chris for correcting my oversight.  I have mentioned the
Levinson proposal in earlier posts but have neglected to post the ftp
address for it.  As we begin to do more business with SGML on the Internet,
and must integrate and manage the distributed databases, these proposals
take on more importance than may be apparent at first glance.

IMO, the pieces of the puzzle that are ubiquitous must be efficient.  The
catalogs replicate information that can be found in the SGML and add
information such as Stinchfield's SEMANTICS field that can be added to the
SGML but has been done differently by different applications designers.  As
I have stated previously, we need more ODBC like catalog and standard API
capabilities.  The IETF proposals are not yet as strong as ODBC, but this
could be a good beginning.

This is an issue that becomes more pressing.  The decisions of the IETF to
which the test "rough ideas and some running code" is the one most cited
even if apocryphally, now have taken on importance almost equal to that of
the WG8 working committee owing to the speed with which the rough ideas
become laws of interoperation, and the prototype code becomes the standard
application.  Therefore, once again, I strongly urge the SGML community to
become more aware and more involved in the IETF processes with respect to
SGML.

After six months of researching these issues and technologies, I support
the basic proposals, but the implications of their adoption require
intensive study by all of the community.
</message>
<message id="<44e6nf$cho@news.Belgium.EU.net>" date="3021282479" seqno="10878">
From: Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and OpenDoc
Date: 28 Sep 1995 13:07:59 GMT
Organization: SEMA Group Belgium
Message-ID: <44e6nf$cho@news.Belgium.EU.net>
References: \<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com> <449osh$3fn@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>

mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan) wrote:
>Marge T. Lorang (ir003188@interramp.com) wrote:
>: I know that parts of this topic were discussed on c.t.SGML previously
>: (?1-2 years ago?) but at the time I didn't have a need to follow the
>                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>: discussion.  Now I do :-(.
>               ^^^^^^^^
>
>This happens to me all the time.
>
>But now I use http://www.dejanews.com, an index of USENET newsgroups.
>
>I guess it doesn't go back far enough to get the threads that you
>remembered though.
>
>The only interesting match for "OpenDoc" is included below.
>
>...

>			SGML Europe '95
>
>			16-19th May 1995

>...

>	- Building and selling the business case for SGML
>	* Options for style sheet interchange
>	* SGML, OpenDoc and OLE 2.0: a technical point of view
>...
                ^^^^^^^

The presentation on OpenDoc was given by Dallas Powell, of Novell/
WordPerfect, and explained the way OpenDoc and SGML can co-exist.

Jean Paoli, of Grif, chaired this session and made the distinction
that OpenDoc (and OLE) provide solid protocols for integrating
different tools by organizing the exchange of data fragments
in a seamless way, whilst SGML provides a very effective,
tool-independent data storage format.

Why would they be mutually exclusive ?


-- 
Jacques Deseyne \<jad@sema.be>
Sema Group Belgium - Stallestraat 96 - B-1180 Brussels



</message>
<message id="<44eakn$ql2@sundog.tiac.net>" date="3021286487" seqno="10879">
From: Susan Ryan \<susanr@tiac.net>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: BOSTON SGML USER'S GROUP
Date: 28 Sep 1995 14:14:47 GMT
Organization: MHC
Message-ID: <44eakn$ql2@sundog.tiac.net>


BOSTON SGML USER'S GROUP TO HOLD FIRST MEETING OCTOBER 18, 1995.

The first meeting of the Boston area SGML User's Group is going to be 
October 18th from 6-9pm. The meeting will be held at the Sheraton Tara, 
Newton (over the Pike at Newton Corner).

Our speaker for the evening will be Mary Laplante, Executive Director, 
SGML Open. Mary will talk about SGML from the market perspective. (For 
Mary's biography, see below).

We plan to spend some time at the end of this meeting to discuss 
organizational issues such as finding volunteers to help run the group, 
developing a list of future meeting topics, etc. We hope to see you 
there.

If you cannot attend this first meeting, watch the newsgroup 
comp.text.sgml for details of our meeting in November.

We would like to start a database of people interested in the Boston 
area SGML User's Group; we would appreciate it if you could answer the 
following questions and reply to Susan Ryan via email (sryan@hensel.com) 
or surface mail (see address below).

__I plan to attend the October 18th meeting.

__I cannot attend the October 18th meeting but would like to be notified 
of future meetings.

__I am interested in helping to organize SGML Boston.

I would be most likely to attend meetings held:
    __in Boston
                  OR
    __on Route 128

The best way to reach me is via:
    __email. My address is__________________________
                 OR
    __Surface mail. My address is__________________________
                               ____________________________
                               ____________________________
                               ____________________________
                               ____________________________


I would like meetings to cover the following topics:
                               ____________________________
                               ____________________________
                               ____________________________
                               ____________________________
                               ____________________________

ABOUT OUR SPEAKER
Mary Laplante's background includes ten years of experience in the 
electronic publishing industry. She was founder and president of 
Laplante and Associates, a professional consulting firm that provides 
marketing and technical expertise in publishing-related applications and 
technologies. Prior to managing her own consulting practice, she was 
President and Chief Operating Officer for Cygnet Publishing 
Technologies, Incorporated, a Pittsburgh-based company that develops and 
markets software products for high-end electronic publishing 
applications. She also served as Vice President of Marketing for 
Avalanche Development Company, a leading supplier of data preparation 
software for advanced text applications. She held several marketing 
positions, including Vice President and Senior Product Manager, during 
her tenure at Scribe Systems, Inc.


--------------------------
Susan Ryan                 
Martin Hensel Corp.         
59 Spring Street          
Medford, MA 02155         
sryan@hensel.com
voice:(617) 393-0724
fax:(617) 395-1842

--------------------------
Mark Ketzler
ArborText
mdk@arbortext.com


</message>
<message id="<44ejqi$rpc@ulowell.uml.edu>" date="3021295890" seqno="10880">
From: lrutledg@cs.uml.edu (Lloyd Rutledge)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Draft HyTime Corrigendum?
Date: 28 Sep 1995 16:51:30 GMT
Organization: UMass-Lowell Computer Science
Message-ID: <44ejqi$rpc@ulowell.uml.edu>
References: <4494i6$p77@larry.infi.net>
Keywords: HyTime

Philip C. Murray writes:

>Is there an FTP-able copy of the draft HyTime Corrigendum?

The files are available at the following URL:

  ftp://ftp.ifi.uio.no/pub/SGML/httc1/

Lloyd

--
Lloyd Rutledge
Distributed Multimedia Systems Laboratory   
Department of Computer Science            vox: +1 508-934-3554
University of Massachusetts - Lowell      fax: +1 508-452-4298
One University Avenue                     net: lrutledg@cs.uml.edu
Lowell, Massachusetts 01854-2881 USA      web: http://www.cs.uml.edu/~lrutledg/
</message>
<message id="<1995Sep28.155604.28040@news.cs.indiana.edu>" date="3021310558" seqno="10882">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: "Arijit Sengupta" \<asengupt@cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: jclark site down?
Message-ID: <1995Sep28.155604.28040@news.cs.indiana.edu>
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:55:58 -0500


Are the ftp and httpd servers at the site maintained by James Clark
Down? (ftp.jclark.com and http://www.jclark.com) ? I am trying to get
the latest SGML parser (sp) and I haven't been able to get in either
of the sites...

Thanks,
Jit.
-- 
  _|_|_|_|_|  _|_|_|  _|_|_|_|_|    | asengupt@indiana.edu 
      _|        _|        _|    http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/asengupt.html 
      _|        _|        _|        | Computer Science, LH215
  _|  _|        _|        _|        | Indiana University, Bloomington IN47405
  _|_|_|ust   _|_|_|n     _|ime     | (812) 855-4318  / (812) 334-2695
</message>
<message id="<44fe3u$ltn@lo-fan.jpl.nasa.gov>" date="3021322814" seqno="10883">
From: Mike O'Neal \<michael.c.oneal@jpl.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Dates in Attributes
Date: 29 Sep 1995 00:20:14 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena
Message-ID: <44fe3u$ltn@lo-fan.jpl.nasa.gov>



I would like to include a date in an attribute, but I would also like it to be 
readable by other programs so I could compare documents by date.  One way to do this
is to make date an element with (day, month, and year) as attributes and allow 
values of (1..31,jan..dec, 1995..20xx).  This seems awfully complicated, and I 
would really like to have it as an attribute, not an element.  Does anyone have an 
idea on how to do this better?

Thanks in Advance,

Mike O'Neal
Jet Propulsion Lab


</message>
<message id="<19950929T103734Z@naggum.no>" date="3021359854" seqno="10884">
From: Erik Naggum \<erik@naggum.no>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Dates in Attributes
Date: 29 Sep 1995 10:37:34 +0000
Organization: Naggum Software; +47 2295 0313
Message-ID: <19950929T103734Z@naggum.no>
References: <44fe3u$ltn@lo-fan.jpl.nasa.gov>

[Mike O'Neal]

|   I would like to include a date in an attribute, but I would also like
|   it to be readable by other programs so I could compare documents by
|   date.  One way to do this is to make date an element with (day, month,
|   and year) as attributes and allow values of (1..31,jan..dec,
|   1995..20xx).  This seems awfully complicated, and I would really like
|   to have it as an attribute, not an element.  Does anyone have an idea
|   on how to do this better?

this is an excellent occasion to push ISO 8601 and NOTATION.  thanks!

in SGML, one may declare special notations to apply to elements and
entities, such that programs may interpret their contents correctly, and
also to save yourself a lot of useless hassle by using simple low-level
languages that have a more compact syntax than SGML could give them.

a notation is declared with a public identifier, which should point to an
international standard:

    \<!NOTATION date PUBLIC "ISO 8601//NOTATION
	Representation of dates and times//EN">

then, one may say

    \<!ELEMENT date (#PCDATA)>
    \<!ATTLIST date
        notation NOTATION (date) #FIXED date>

now you're free to use ISO 8601 in your document instance:

    This offer expires \<date>1995-10-15\</date>.

and you can print it any way you want:

    This offer expires the fiftheenth day of the tenth month of the year
    one thousand nine hundred ninety-fffff..., ninety-fffff..., ninety-
    fffff..., ninety-six, sir!

beware that ISO 8601 is quite messy, as international standards are wont to
go; it covers everything several times over.  better stick to the full form
and avoid the abbreviations.

SGML does not allow attribute values to be covered by such notations, but
you can certainly use this notation in attributes as well:

    I was walking by the riverside \<date form="1995-09-28">yesterday\</date>,
    and remembering \<date form="1992-06-02">the first time we met\</date>...

such that "form" is the formal date specification that could, e.g., be used
to place events along a timeline.  (in its absence, one would have to use
an external event list.  best to tell the machine exactly what you think.)

#\<Erik 3021359854>
-- 
line of sight: the imaginary line from your eye to whatever you're trying to
read, usually blocked by any cute and lovable cat that demands attention and
stresses that "retractable" doesn't mean "retracted" if you think otherwise.
</message>
<message id="<4448ei$psq@hopper.acm.org>" date="3020956562" seqno="10885">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Table of contents and subdocuments
Date: 24 Sep 1995 18:36:02 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <4448ei$psq@hopper.acm.org>
References: <9509210857.AA19310@jytko.jyu.fi>,<43vvip$a1h@nimitz.fibr.net>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article <43vvip$a1h@nimitz.fibr.net>,
 dksand@txdirect.net (Dennis Sanders) writes:
>Katri Kauppinen \<jytrio@cs.jyu.fi> wrote:

>>Thirdly, in the documents appear emphasizing words and references to other
>>documents among the normal text. I would like to know if the next way is
>>suitable for define that:
>
>>(a)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA)  +(emphasizing, reference) >
>>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >
>
>>I was also thinking to do this by the next two ways.

>>(b)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA | emphasizing | reference)+ >
>>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

>I vote for choice (a),

Choice (b) is to be preferred, because it says that the emphasizing and
reference elements are really part of the text of the paragraph.  Inclusions
are extras not really part of the elements in which they occur.

                        but you need to add some attributes to the
>reference and emphasizing elements.  That way you can identify the
>type of emphasis and where the reference is pointing to.
>Additionally, you seem to want to remove as much tagging as possible
>for your authors, so try to shorten the element names.  i.e.:
>
>\<!ELEMENT 	para 	- - 	(#PCDATA)  	+(emp, extref)	>
>\<!ELEMENT 	emp 	- - 	(#PCDATA) 			>
>\<!ATTLIST	emp	style	(bold | italic | underline)	"bold"

1.  _When authors have to enter markup "manually", i.e., with a "dumb"
or non-SGML-aware editor, then shortening selected names is a good
idea.  Only shorten those names the authors will use "all the time"--
don't shorten any that they might forget momentarily.  And don't shorten
more than five to seven names; they won't be consistently remembered.
Authors should be concentrating on content, not remembering cryptic
markup.  You decide whether these three names are in your top seven.

2.  Dennis has made a possibly unwarranted assumption about Katri's
use of SGML and the word "emphasizing".  Most languages have a concept
of emphasizing a word or phrase, which is part of the semantics of
the language.  Such a phrase is often displayed in written displays
by using a related italic font if one is available, otherwise a slant
version of the regular font, if that is available, and otherwise an
underline.  The same phrase in a spoken "display" is differentiated
from the surrounding "text" by an increase in the volume and/or pitch
of the voice.  When describing data by structure and content, as we
usually try to do when using SGML, these phrases are appropriately
called "emphasis" (or "emphasizing" or "emph") to describe their
content, not their appearance.

Other kinds of phrases which are sometimes set off from the surrounding
text should have different content/structure-based names:  book and
article titles, foreign phrases, first use of technical terms, etc.
Sometimes these phrases are displayed the same way an emphasized phrase
is displayed, sometimes not.  (Do you raise your voice when you speak
a book title?)

Describing pieces of information solely by the way you think it should
be displayed is very shortsighted--you are in trouble if you wish to
change display styles (as you often must do when changing display media
and may want to do at other times) and need to differentiate between
two kinds of things that were previously displayed the same way.  And
this really becomes a problem if you want to used your documents as
a database.

Dennis has illustrated an often-less-desirable approach to document
analysis, and appears to have assumed that's what Katri had in mind.
I haven't seen anything in her query that suggests it.

There are times when display-oriented SGML is appropriate:  Having a lot
of display-marked legacy data that has to be dealt with quickly comes
to mind, for example.  But it's not usually a good idea for new data
being created with SGML already available.  Content/structure markup
results in more easily reused, and hence more valuable, data.

Hope this helps.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<44h4kp$kld@spock.ebt.com>" date="3021378833" seqno="10886">
From: jcs@ebt.com (Jeff Cutler-Stamm)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Who's doing good SGML on the Web
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 15:53:53 GMT
Organization: Electronic Book Technologies
Message-ID: <44h4kp$kld@spock.ebt.com>
References: <44cdr4$cnc@wombatnet.batnet.com>

In article <44cdr4$cnc@wombatnet.batnet.com>,
   Doc Searls \<searls@batnet.com> wrote:
>I'm a rookie here, so forgive me if these questions have obvious 
>answers.  If they do, just point me in the right directions.
>
>1) Who, if anybody at this point, is making massive documentation 
>available in SGML form for access over the Web?

Check out http://www.novell.com and choose the "Manuals" button. Novell
has published about 120,000 pages of SGML documentation using EBT's 
DynaText (http://www.ebt.com). It is served up by DynaWeb which automatically
converts to HTML on the fly.

>2) What broadly characterizes doing this well versus doing this poorly? 
>By "well" I mean "useful" in an obvious, or at least an intuitive, way.
>3) Are Macintosh SGML editors (or other tools) available?
>
>I have more questions, but these are a good start.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Doc
>
>
>
</message>
<message id="<44clpn$b61@mirv.unsw.edu.au>" date="3021228515" seqno="10887">
From: J.Endersby@unsw.edu.au (Jim Endersby)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: SGML magazines/newsletters?
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:08:35 GMT
Organization: The University of New South Wales
Message-ID: <44clpn$b61@mirv.unsw.edu.au>

Does anyone know of magazines or newsletetrs concerning SGML.
Especially any published in Australiasia?
Jim Endersby
Publications Officer
The University of New South Wales
Sydney, Australia

</message>
<message id="<CRM.95Sep29210400@phaser.ebt.com>" date="3021411840" seqno="10888">
From: crm@phaser.ebt.com (Christopher R. Maden)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: IETF Draft for SGML Catalog Exchange
Date: 30 Sep 1995 01:04:00 GMT
Organization: Electronic Book Technologies, Inc.
Message-ID: \<CRM.95Sep29210400@phaser.ebt.com>
References: <9509212231.AA11067@fly.hiwaay.net> \<CRM.95Sep27163033@phaser.ebt.com> <9509281307.AA28900@fly.hiwaay.net>
In-reply-to: Len Bullard's message of 28 Sep 1995 08:07:55 -0500

In article <9509281307.AA28900@fly.hiwaay.net> Len Bullard
\<cbullard@hiwaay.net> writes, of the Catalog proposal from the MIME-
SGML WG of the IETF:

   The catalogs replicate information that can be found in the SGML

How do catalogs replicate information?  True, one *can* provide SYSTEM
identifiers in a document but one wouldn't want to; that was the
entire point behind SGML Open's technical resolution, to separate
system-specific information from SGML documents in order to allow
greater portability.  In fact, PUBLIC identifiers are more or less
useless without some external mapping utility.  Don Stinchfield's
proposal just uses the catalog as a starting point for Internet
transfer of SGML documents.

   and add information such as Stinchfield's SEMANTICS field that can
   be added to the SGML but has been done differently by different
   applications designers.

Which is the point of the new keyword - since different SGML
applications are looking for different semantic information, it
doesn't belong in the document itself.  The SEMANTIC keyword can be
followed by a list of different semantic information - DSSSL
stylesheets, FOSIs, DynaText stylesheets, Balise-RTF translators, Perl
PostScript generators...  The application should use the first usable
one.

   This is an issue that becomes more pressing.  The decisions of the
   IETF to which the test "rough ideas and some running code" is the
   one most cited even if apocryphally, now have taken on importance
   almost equal to that of the WG8 working committee owing to the
   speed with which the rough ideas become laws of interoperation, and
   the prototype code becomes the standard application.  Therefore,
   once again, I strongly urge the SGML community to become more aware
   and more involved in the IETF processes with respect to SGML.

And I second Len's call.  Anyone with an interest in Internet transfer
of SGML (by means other than tar | compress | uuencode) should
subscribe to sgml-internet, check out the archives, and read the
Internet-Drafts.  The more people participate constructively on these
proposals, the stronger the results will be.

-Chris
--
Christopher R. Maden     Electronic Book Technologies, Inc.
Applications Consultant  One Richmond Square
http://www.ebt.com/      Providence, Rhode Island 02906 USA
+1.401.421.9550 (voice)  crm@ebt.com  +1.401.521.2030 (fax)
</message>
<message id="<44iglc$lh9@lilac.sirti.org>" date="3021423724" seqno="10889">
From: Ron Turner \<swa@comtch.iea.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: README.1ST: SGML for Writers and Editors
Date: 30 Sep 1995 04:22:04 GMT
Organization: Soph-Ware Associates
Message-ID: <44iglc$lh9@lilac.sirti.org>
To: sraffert@trout.ab.umd.edu

Hi,

We are the authors of README.1ST: SGML for Writers and Editors, so are 
probably not the ones to actually comment on the usefulness etc. but just so 
everyone knows, here are the particulars needed to order the book if you 
want to:

   ISBN: 0-13-432717-9
   List price: $48

This is the first title in the new Charles F. Goldfarb Open Information 
Management series, Prentice-Hall Professional Technical Reference

Ron Turner
Tim Douglass
Audrey Turner

</message>
<message id="<44iu7v$9at@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>" date="3021437631" seqno="10890">
From: Gerald Wildgruber
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Strange Lack of NeXT SGML Tools ??
Date: 30 Sep 1995 08:13:51 GMT
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)
Message-ID: <44iu7v$9at@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>
Reply-To: gewil@ue801be.ppp.lrz-muenchen.de



Hello,

My question is desperately simple: are there any tools for NeXTSTEP that can produce correct SGML output ? I wouldn't go so far as to expect a whole bundle with the NeXT specific graphical interface and applications communicating with each other, just a simple SGML Editor perhaps with intelligent tagging surveillance. My investigation so far was discouraging: I scanned the entire volumes of the ten NeXT newsgroups since the year '89 - and I found the poor amount of 23 occurences of SGML, only half of them were really concerned with SGML. There have been THREE explicit requests for related tools, all of them remained unanswered.
That is strange because usually NeXT software is really quick to appear if something new is coming out (e.g. three or four different PDF Viewers were recently created for NeXTSTEP). 
Yet I couldn't find anything comparable for this fascinating and elegant thing SGML (there is "only" the SGML extension for GNU emacs available for NeXT). None of the commercial software developpers seem to be interested in NeXT; SoftQuad, for instance, develops for almost every platform, but not for NeXT; it's a pity.
I would love to be wrong, could someone instruct me if there are those tools, or could other NeXT SGML users tell me about their solutions ? Are there NeXT SGML users ??

I would very much appreciate any hints

Gerald
</message>
<message id="<812396826snz@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>" date="3021385626" seqno="10891">
From: Martin Bryan \<mtbryan@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Dates in Attributes
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 17:47:06 GMT
Organization: The SGML Centre
Message-ID: <812396826snz@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk>
References: <44fe3u$ltn@lo-fan.jpl.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: mtbryan@sgml-cen.demon.co.uk

In article <44fe3u$ltn@lo-fan.jpl.nasa.gov>
           michael.c.oneal@jpl.nasa.gov "Mike O'Neal" writes:

> 
> 
> I would like to include a date in an attribute, but I would also like it to be 
> readable by other programs so I could compare documents by date.  One way to do
>  this
> is to make date an element with (day, month, and year) as attributes and allow 
> values of (1..31,jan..dec, 1995..20xx).  This seems awfully complicated, and I 
> would really like to have it as an attribute, not an element.  Does anyone have
>  an 
> idea on how to do this better?
> 
While Eric Naggum has suggested use of ISO 8601 format dates there is another
possibility. HyTime (ISO 10744) defines SGML architectural forms that can
be used to define a wide range of dates, not just those based on the Gregorian
calendar. Whilst slightly more complex than Eric's proposal they do deal
adequately with things like alternative date formats, including those
for Jewish, Chinese and other non-standardized date formats. 
-- 
Martin Bryan @ The SGML Centre, Churchdown, Glos. GL3 2PU, UK (+44 1452 714029)
</message>
<message id="<9509301946.AA12203@jclark.com>" date="3021482802" seqno="10892">
From: James Clark \<jjc@jclark.com>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: jclark site down?
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 20:46:42 +0000
Message-ID: <9509301946.AA12203@jclark.com>
References: <1995Sep28.155604.28040@news.cs.indiana.edu>
In-Reply-To: "Arijit Sengupta"'s message of Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:55:58 -0500


> Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
> From: "Arijit Sengupta" \<asengupt@cs.indiana.edu>
> Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:55:58 -0500
> 
> Are the ftp and httpd servers at the site maintained by James Clark
> Down? (ftp.jclark.com and http://www.jclark.com) ? I am trying to get
> the latest SGML parser (sp) and I haven't been able to get in either
> of the sites...

Unfortunately my internet connection went down while I was away on
holiday and there was nobody to fix it.  I've just got back, and it's
now working again.

James Clark
jjc@jclark.com
</message>
<message id="<447k2e$172@navmat.navy.gov.au>" date="3021066766" seqno="10893">
From: Al Hickey \<ajhick@navmat.navy.gov.au>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HTML3 Equation and Table Authoring Tools??
Date: 26 Sep 1995 01:12:46 GMT
Organization: Director Naval Logistics Policy
Message-ID: <447k2e$172@navmat.navy.gov.au>
References: <43onu8$n9f@newsgate.dircon.co.uk>
To: bruce@sgml.dircon.co.uk

I'm not sure about the Equation side of things, but the HotDog package 
does support HTML3.0 tables. It is available for a free 30 day trial from 
http://www.sausage.com

-- 
__________________________

Al Hickey
DNLP (LIM4)
CP3-1-B5

ajhick@navmat.navy.gov.au

(06) 266 4209


</message>
<message id="<447k96$1bp@navmat.navy.gov.au>" date="3021066982" seqno="10894">
From: Al Hickey \<ajhick@navmat.navy.gov.au>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: HTML3 Equation and Table Authoring Tools??
Date: 26 Sep 1995 01:16:22 GMT
Organization: Director Naval Logistics Policy
Message-ID: <447k96$1bp@navmat.navy.gov.au>
References: <43onu8$n9f@newsgate.dircon.co.uk>
To: bruce@sgml.dircon.co.uk

I'm not sure about the equation side of things, but the HotDog package 
does support HTML3.0 tables. This is a Windows application that I've used 
and it seems quite good. It is available for a 30 day free trial from 
http://www.sausage.com

-- 
__________________________

Al Hickey
DNLP (LIM4)
CP3-1-B5

ajhick@navmat.navy.gov.au

(06) 266 4209


</message>
<message id="<DFqKHz.Iwu@mv.mv.com>" date="3021482951" seqno="10896">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: kaikow@standards.com
Subject: Has the FAQ moved?
Originator: kaikow@mv.mv.com
Message-ID: \<DFqKHz.Iwu@mv.mv.com>
Sender: kaikow@standards.com
Reply-To: kaikow@standards.com
Organization: MV Communications, Inc.
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 20:49:11 GMT
Followup-To: kaikow@standards.com 

I looked in ftp.ifi.uio.no and rtfm.mit.edu, could not find the FAQ.
Has it moved?
</message>
<message id="<199509291906.PAA09233@village.doctools.com>" date="3021390534" seqno="10898">
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
From: "Eve L. Maler" \<elm@arbortext.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:08:54 -0400
Message-ID: <199509291906.PAA09233@village.doctools.com>
References: <9509210857.AA19310@jytko.jyu.fi>
Subject: Re: Table of contents and subdocuments

Hello Katri,

Here are some relatively brief answers to your DTD-writing questions.

\<blatant-promotion mode="apologetic">
I have cowritten a book on DTD development that would help you in your 
quest for answers (including, as it happens, more detailed information
on all the questions you've posed in your posting)...  It will be 
on store shelves by the beginning of December.  The vital stats are:

  Title: Developing SGML DTDs: From Text to Model to Markkup
  Authors: Eve Maler and Jeanne El Andaloussi
  Publisher: Prentice Hall PTR
  ISBN: 0-13-309881-8
\</blatant-promotion>

Katri Kauppinen wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I have some documents for which I am writing DTDs. I have three problems
>and I would be very grateful for all help.
>
>First, all the documents have a common part of the structure. I would
>prefere to write this common part only once, and then use it in every DTD.
>The contents of these common elements are written in the first document and
>then copied and modified in the others. However, both of the documents, the
>original and the modified, must be saved. Could the SUBDOC be a solution?

I'm not sure what you're referring to as needing to be "common": 
structure (markup model) or real document content?

If you want to reuse a particular grouping of markup declarations in
multiple DTDs, you can do this with an external parameter entity -- 
a DTD "module" that is stored in a separate file and pulled by 
reference into several DTDs.  It's very common to have a base of 
"content" elements (what I call an information pool) that can be used 
in several related document hierarchies.  For example:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
hierarchy for      |    hierarchy for       |  hierarchy for
customer letters   |    software manuals    |  training materials
-------------------------------------------------------------------
               single      information      pool
-------------------------------------------------------------------

If you take a look at the new DocBook V2.3 DTD (see 
http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html), it's organized in
exactly this modular way, using external parameter entities.
It comes with a Maintainer's Guide that explains the approach
and the kinds of flexibility this gives you.

If you want to reuse fragments of document content, you would probably
want to use internal or external general entities.  Internal ones are
like substitution strings; external ones are like modular files.

If you want to build documents that are super-collections of documents
whose structure is "nested" inside the topmost hierarchy, then SUBDOC
*may* be appropriate.  But SUBDOC has a number of pitfalls, and you
may want to consider various clever ways to manage your nested documents
using DTD modularity and entity structures instead.

>Secondly, I would like to know what is the best way to define the table of
>contents in DTD. The purpose is to generate the actual table of contents as
>automatically as possible. An other goal is to take advantage of the
>HyTime-standard and define links from the table of contents to the each
>chapter.

Several DTDs have examples of TOC markup structures.  There are several
considerations in figuring whether you need TOC markup at all (and how 
much you need):

o Should TOCs be built regardless of individual author preference about
  whether they are output?  --If authors must decide, you need at least
  an "on-off switch" (say, an attribute setting somewhere, or an empty
  element).

o Should TOCs be output in certain locations regardless of individual
  author preference about where they are output?  --If authors must
  have control over where TOCs go, you need markup for indicating the
  locations.  Usually this results in an optional \<toc> element 
  appearing in all the locations where one can appear.

o Does the TOC data need to be handcrafted at any stage, or can it be
  reliably generated?   --If authors must edit TOCs, you need some real
  structure inside a TOC element (such as DocBook has).  You'll need to
  figure out how your processors gather and output the "augmented source,"
  and accuracy of this source will be a problem.  Alternatively, authors
  could edit some non-SGML auxiliary file that gets accessed during
  final formatting etc.

o Will you interchange your documents with any recipients who will want
  a "snapshot" of TOCs in SGML form?  --If you need to do this, you'll
  almost certainly want to use SGML markup for TOC structure.  This has
  the same pitfalls as above.

>Thirdly, in the documents appear emphasizing words and references to other
>documents among the normal text. I would like to know if the next way is
>suitable for define that:
>
>(a)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA)  +(emphasizing, reference) >
>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >
>
>I was also thinking to do this by the next two ways. The b-solution isn't
>very recommended, at least by the books. The alternative c isn't very nice
>either, because the writer must always choose the text-tag before writing
>the normal text.
>
>(b)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (#PCDATA | emphasizing | reference)+ >
>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >

I don't know why (b) wouldn't be recommended.  Most content models at
the "leaves" of an SGML tree look like this.  As long as the #PCDATA
in in a repeatable-OR group, the mixed content is not problematic.  I'd
definitely pick (b).

>(c)   \<!ELEMENT paragraph - - (text | emphasizing | reference)+ >
>      \<!ELEMENT text - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT emphasizing - - (#PCDATA) >
>      \<!ELEMENT reference - - (#PCDATA) >
>
>Could you please give examles of the solutions?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Katri Kauppinen

Hope this helps...

-- 
\<!--Eve Maler ........ elm@arbortext.com ...... voice +1 617 270 5750-->
\<!--ArborText, Inc. ........................ http://www.arbortext.com-->
\<!--Coauthor, Developing SGML DTDs ............ due out November 1995-->
\<!--Sponsor, Davenport ..... http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html-->
</message>
<message id="<44etdi$ddg@hopper.acm.org>" date="3021305714" seqno="10917">
From: davep@ACM.ORG
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Readme.1st ?
Date: 28 Sep 1995 19:35:14 GMT
Organization: ACM Network Services
Message-ID: <44etdi$ddg@hopper.acm.org>
References: <44bse9$2f3d@trout.ab.umd.edu>,\<DFKtyu.26K@midway.uchicago.edu>
Reply-To: davep@ACM.ORG

In article \<DFKtyu.26K@midway.uchicago.edu>,
 rkrug@ellis.uchicago.edu (Robert Krug) writes:

>The book implies (although does not seem to claim directly) that an SGML
>document should be in ASCII. This I cannot believe. SGML is defined in ISO
>8879, and the international character sets are defined in ISO 8879-x. Why
>would anyone in Europe (or anywhere else) want to use ASCII? This has me
>confused.

Fear not:  SGML does not prescribe what character set must be used for
SGML documents.

Dave Peterson
SGMLWorks!

davep@acm.org
</message>
<message id="<44f11r$3ai@yucca.ossi.com>" date="3021309435" seqno="10881">
From: ralph@ossi.com (Ralph Ferris)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: SGML and OpenDoc
Date: 28 Sep 1995 13:37:15 -0700
Organization: Fujitsu Open Systems Solutions, Inc.
Message-ID: <44f11r$3ai@yucca.ossi.com>
References: \<ir003188-2509952021050001@ip249.san-diego.ca.interramp.com>

>Now I am not well versed on OpenDoc but I had always thought that SGML and
>OpenDoc are _not_ mutually exclusive.  Further questioning reveals that
>several different medical informatics people have also dismissed SGML by
>saying that OpenDoc supplants the usefulness of SGML-based data. Could
>someone please comment as to whether SGML and OpenDoc are mutually
>exclusive? Any arguments that I could use to contradict this attitude
>would be helpful also. I was under the impression that one could have
>OpenDoc be just as proprietary as any other word processor format. I just
>can't help feeling that this is Token Ring and SNA all over again.

>Your comments are welcome. TIA

>Marge T. Lorang
>m_lorang@neurocrine.com

I would describe any attempt to picture SGML as "supplanted" by
OpenDoc as misinformed:

- SGML provides a syntax for writing document markup languages,
  i.e., it can be thought of as providing the equivalent of BNF
  for these languages.

- OpenDoc provides a means for handling content that is
  developed under different editors in the context of a "compound
  document." So if we want to combine into one document contents 
  that include SGML markup, video data in MPEG, and text in Word 
  format, we can use OpenDoc to do that. As explained below, how
  SGML and OpenDoc relate in this context is a matter of what our
  requirements are.

- Bento "is a specification for storage and interchange of compound
  content." Bento uses an index to locate the different types of data
  that might be stored at various offsets within a Bento container.
  As it happens, HyTime's "Standard Bento" (sbento) feature - which
  was adopted from Bento - allows us to apply a similar approach to 
  SGML documents. 

OpenDoc/Bento aren't concerned with the nature of the content that
is being edited or stored - they provide the environment in which
the editing and storage occur. The content can be SGML or anything
else. OpenDoc doesn't provide a word processor format - you can't
"mark up" a document in OpenDoc - and for that matter doesn't require 
the use of Bento as a storage mechanism.

In practice, how SGML can be used with OpenDoc depends on how 
SGML documents are to relate to the total compound document. There are 
two basic approaches, "OpenDoc over SGML" or "SGML over OpenDoc." 

If the intention is to create compound documents in which
the entire document is an SGML document as well as have an
OpenDoc-based SGML publishing environment, existing SGML
publishing systems would need to be modified to use 
the OpenDoc arbitrator and dispatcher to determine
which editor to invoke, depending on which "part" of the
document was active. In this case, the "parts" of the
document would consist of text elements handled by the
"main" editing system, tables (usually handled through a
separate editor), and external entities in some special
notation that are imported into the document at the point of
reference (for example, graphics, audio or video segments)
and requiring special editors of their own.  In this
scenario, the entire "compound document" remains under the
control of the SGML application and can be validated for DTD compliance
by an SGML parser. The SGML publishing system uses OpenDoc to provide 
entity management, so we have "SGML over OpenDoc" (or "CDA within 
SGML"). The modifications to existing SGML publishing systems required 
to implement this environment need not be extensive.

If on the otherhand, we want to incorporate some text in SGML
markup as one component of a compound document that contains non-SGML
components that are *not* referenced from the SGML markup, we can use 
OpenDoc to manage all the components as one compound document. For this 
we would use an "OpenDoc over SGML" (or "SGML within OpenDoc") 
environment. So if we have a compound document open that includes text 
in SGML markup, MPEG video, and Word text, and these are separate 
"parts," OpenDoc will determine which part of the document is 
currently active, which editor owns that part, and direct any 
keystrokes to the appropriate editor. An SGML editing system would
only become active when an SGML "part" (which would be an SGML document
in and of itself) was active. There would be no overall parsing
of the compound document for SGML DTD compliance, and the SGML
editor would use its own SGML entity management system and
dispatching system to invoke the required editor at the
required time. In other words, the SGML editing system would
operate the way it currently does and would not need to be
modified to fit the OpenDoc environment (although some
modifications for optimization might be made). Of course,
it's possible to imagine an OpenDoc integrated SGML editor, in which
case, when selected, the SGML editor would function as outlined
under the "SGML over OpenDoc" discussion, but only over its own
"part" of the total compound document.

As always, we will need working systems to see how the preceding
scenarios play out in practice. At this point, however, it appears
that the attempt to bring SGML and OpenDoc into conflict is both
artifical and divisive.


Ralph E. Ferris
Project Manager, Electronic Publications
Fujitsu Open Systems Solutions, Inc. (FOSSI), Engineering Services
Phone: (408) 456-7806 Fax: (408) 456-7050
E-mail: ralph@ossi.com

A Davenport Group sponsor.  For information on the Davenport 
  Group see ftp://ftp.ora.com/pub/davenport/README.html
        or  http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html




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