<message id="<4caljf$f3r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>" date="3029555247" seqno="11961">
From: ktalk@aol.com (KTALK)
Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.text.tex,comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: WYSIWYG Math and Latex (was MATH and SGML)
Date: 2 Jan 1996 02:07:27 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4caljf$f3r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <820460899snz@sciword.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: ktalk@aol.com (KTALK)

And for more info on a Professional quality equation editor that can
produce TeX/LaTeX output - try:

http://www.ktalk.com

Until January 15, 1996 the Professional Edition is $99.00 (US).
</message>
<message id="<4cbf2j$gu8@news.uni-c.dk>" date="3029581331" seqno="11962">
From: Kim Oechsle Hansen
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: RTF <--> SGML conversion?
Date: 2 Jan 1996 14:22:11 GMT
Organization: AKA-Print
Message-ID: <4cbf2j$gu8@news.uni-c.dk>

Does anyone know of a RTF-SGML converterting program, either free 
with source code (preferred) or a commercial package?

Regards and thanks,

Kim Oechsle Hansen, systems programmer.
****************************************************
*                  AKA-PRINT A/S                   *
*           Sommervej 8, DK-8210 Aarhus V          *
* Phone: +45 86 75 00 33                           *
* Fax: +45 86 75 01 33      ISDN:  +45 87 44 00 44 * 
* E-mail: akaprint@inet.uni-c.dk                   *
****************************************************

</message>
<message id="<4cbgel$ovq@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>" date="3029582741" seqno="11963">
From: uwe@mpi-sb.mpg.de (Uwe Waldmann)
Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.text.tex,comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Math and SGML (was Re: Is there no reasonable way to write and dis
Date: 2 Jan 1996 14:45:41 GMT
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut fuer Informatik
Message-ID: <4cbgel$ovq@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>
References: <4bjk94$27cp@b.stat.purdue.edu> <19951227T083428Z@arcana.naggum.no> <4brhbp$1nvf@b.stat.purdue.edu> <4c1qaq$n7u@ionews.io.org> <4c8s7h$20tj@b.stat.purdue.edu>
Reply-To: uwe@mpi-sb.mpg.de
Originator: uwe@mpii02005

In article <4c8s7h$20tj@b.stat.purdue.edu>, Herman Rubin
\<hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu> writes:
> Most of the time, I do not care if mathematical symbols are in
> math italics, and I do object to having to type $k$-ary.  

As a reader of mathematical texts, I think it is one of the nicest
features of TeX that it forces people to use math italics even if
they don't care. (I do care.)

-- 
Uwe Waldmann, Max-Planck-Institut fuer Informatik
Im Stadtwald, D-66123 Saarbruecken, Germany
Phone: +49 681 302-5431, Fax: +49 681 302-5401, E-Mail: uwe@mpi-sb.mpg.de
</message>
<message id="<4cbgoc$qtu@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3029583052" seqno="11964">
From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: [Q] FAQ's?
Date: 2 Jan 1996 14:50:52 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
Message-ID: <4cbgoc$qtu@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>
References: <4bkvn3$i2j@senior.nectec.or.th>
Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com

Andrew Criswell (acrisw@mozart.inet.co.th) wrote:
: Would someone please direct me to where I can read more about SGML.

Here's a start:

http://www.sgmlopen.org
http://www.itsi.disa.mil
http://dmsl.cs.uml.edu/standards/hytime.html
http://www.sil.org/sgml/sgml.html
http://www.falch.no
http://navysgml.dt.navy.mil

--
  Tad McClellan,      Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy)
                      email: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com
  Money isn't everything ...
  but it's way ahead of whatever's in second place.
</message>
<message id="<4cbl60$fhr@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>" date="3029587584" seqno="11965">
From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: [Q]: HTML 3 and content model of \<ADDRESS> tag?
Date: 2 Jan 1996 16:06:24 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems
Message-ID: <4cbl60$fhr@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>
References: <30E402C6.4B4F@visionik.dk>
Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com

[follow-up to comp.text.sgml added]


Martin Liversage (info@visionik.dk) wrote:
: I have a problem understanding the content model of the \<ADDRESS> element 
: in the HTML 3 DTD available from 
: \<http://www.halsoft.com/sgml/html-3.0/html-3.dtd>.

: This is an excerpt from the HTML 3 DTD.

: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: \<!ENTITY % address.content "((%text;)* | P*)">

: \<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - %address.content>
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------

: My understanding of this is that you can stuff zero or more \<P> elements 
: inside an \<ADDRESS> element. Now, try to validate the following HTML code 
: (using a validating parser or the validation service at 
: \<http://www.halsoft.com/html-val-svc/>).

: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: \<HTML>
: \<HEAD>
: \<TITLE>Test\</TITLE>

: \<BODY>
: \<ADDRESS>
: \<P>Test
: \</ADDRESS>
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------

: This is the result using the validation service.

: ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: sgmls: SGML error at -, line 7 at ">":
:        ADDRESS end-tag implied by P start-tag; not minimizable
: sgmls: SGML error at -, line 8 at ">":
:        ADDRESS end-tag ignored: doesn't end any open element (current is P)
: ----------------------------------------------------------------------

: Apparently the \<P> element isn't allowed inside \<ADDRESS> element (I've 
: also tried using the NSGMLS parser locally and I get the same result).

: Since I don't really understand whats going I'm beginning to get curious.
: Please enlighten me.


YAUOMC
Yet Another Use Of Mixed Content:

The (partially) expanded ADDRESS ELEMENT declaration is:

\<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - ((#PCDATA | SUB | SUP | B | %notmath)* | P*)>

Which is mixed content that is not a repeatable 'or' group.

So, when the parser scans to here:
\<BODY>
\<ADDRESS>
         ^

it interprets the newline (RE) as #PCDATA, and is therefore here:
\<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - ((#PCDATA | SUB | SUP | B | %notmath)* | P*)>
                        ^^^^^^^

in the content model. \<P> is now not allowed. It should work if 
formatted as below:

...

\<BODY>
\<ADDRESS>\<P>Test\</ADDRESS>

...


--
Tad McClellan,      Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy)
Birthdays are good for you ...
A federally funded study has shown that people with the
most birthdays live the longest.
</message>
<message id="<4cbln5$kr2$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com>" date="3029588133" seqno="11966">
From: Raymond H. Stachowiak <74453.1747@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Math and SGML
Date: 2 Jan 1996 16:15:33 GMT
Organization: System Consulting
Message-ID: <4cbln5$kr2$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com>
References: <4bte76$8rk@news-e1a.megaweb.com>

First, I am neither a mathematician nor linguist, but I am a 
typesetter ( a phrase hardly in use these days). Additionally i 
am an avid proponent of SGML. The arguement about SGML and math 
is an interesting one. First off, is not a mathematical formula a 
graphical representation of practical and physical relationships. 
Essentially it is a graphical way of expressing complex 
relationships. Tex is a language that describes the graphical 
representaiton, not the intellectual understanding of the 
formula. Hence its represenatative syntax can be fairly static. 
Additionally, one can create macros to make the syntax more 
usable. The problem that most people are trying solve is to 
create a SGML syntax to describe how the formula looks. If one is 
trying to describe the intellectual meaning of the mathematic 
funciton in SGML - Well - that's what the graphical equation was 
invented for in the first place - You know "A picture is worth a 
thousand elements". Anyway, if the purpose is to describe the 
graphical picture, equation to a formatter then a SGML set of  
relationships modeled after TEX or other language that describes 
how an equation looks should be workable.  Anything more is 
probably unattainable in our lifetimes.

Note: TEX was one of a number of syntaxs invented for typesetting 
equations easily, we might re-investigate some of these. Ray
</message>
<message id="<4cc3gr$bl2@shellx.best.com>" date="3029602267" seqno="11967">
From: ftmexpat@shellx.best.com (Frank McNeil)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: [Q]: HTML 3 and content model of \<ADDRESS> tag?
Followup-To: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Date: 2 Jan 1996 12:11:07 -0800
Organization: Best Internet Communications
Message-ID: <4cc3gr$bl2@shellx.best.com>
References: <30E402C6.4B4F@visionik.dk> <4cbl60$fhr@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>

SUBJECT: Reference to mixed content SGML stuff.

Tad McClellan (mcclellantj@harrier) wrote:
: [follow-up to comp.text.sgml added]


: Martin Liversage (info@visionik.dk) wrote:
: : I have a problem understanding the content model of the \<ADDRESS> element 
: : in the HTML 3 DTD available from 
: : \<http://www.halsoft.com/sgml/html-3.0/html-3.dtd>.

: : This is an excerpt from the HTML 3 DTD.

: : ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: : \<!ENTITY % address.content "((%text;)* | P*)">

: : \<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - %address.content>
: : ----------------------------------------------------------------------

: : My understanding of this is that you can stuff zero or more \<P> elements 
: : inside an \<ADDRESS> element. Now, try to validate the following HTML code 
: : (using a validating parser or the validation service at 
: : \<http://www.halsoft.com/html-val-svc/>).

: : ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: : \<HTML>
: : \<HEAD>
: : \<TITLE>Test\</TITLE>

: : \<BODY>
: : \<ADDRESS>
: : \<P>Test
: : \</ADDRESS>
: : ----------------------------------------------------------------------

: : This is the result using the validation service.

: : ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: : sgmls: SGML error at -, line 7 at ">":
: :        ADDRESS end-tag implied by P start-tag; not minimizable
: : sgmls: SGML error at -, line 8 at ">":
: :        ADDRESS end-tag ignored: doesn't end any open element (current is P)
: : ----------------------------------------------------------------------

: : Apparently the \<P> element isn't allowed inside \<ADDRESS> element (I've 
: : also tried using the NSGMLS parser locally and I get the same result).

: : Since I don't really understand whats going I'm beginning to get curious.
: : Please enlighten me.

Enlighten yourself :).

Note what the these two fragments produce.

Fragment 1
\<!DOCTYPE  HTML PUBLIC  "-//IETF//DTD HTML 3.0//EN"  >
\<HTML>
\<HEAD>
\<TITLE>Test\</TITLE>

\<BODY>\<ADDRESS>T\<P>Test\</ADDRESS>

This produces the same error message when using nsgmls.exe

nsgmls -s -m d:\\sp\\catalog d:\\sp\\html.dec        addr3-2.htm
addr3-2.htm:6:19:E: end tag for `ADDRESS' omitted, but its declaration does not
permit this
addr3-2.htm:6:7: start tag was here
addr3-2.htm:6:33:E: end tag for element `ADDRESS' which is not open

However as mentioned in the post this won't produce an error.
\<!DOCTYPE  HTML PUBLIC  "-//IETF//DTD HTML 3.0//EN"  >
\<HTML>
\<HEAD>
\<TITLE>Test\</TITLE>

\<BODY>\<ADDRESS>\<P>Test\</ADDRESS>

The problem as I see it today is (I don't understand SGML stuff yet) 

 1. Since the HTML 3.0 DTD fragment has mixed content [2] the newline
    character won't be ignored and 

 2. The parser gets stuck on the %text; path of the model group
    ((%text;)* | P*) and can't get to the P element.  I _believe_ that
    the parser needs an \</ADDRESS> to get out of the %text; path.

This is why I replaced the HTML 3.0 DTD content model with the HTML2.0 
content model for ADDRESS.

\<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - (%text|P)*>

Simple?  Well it works :).

----
Note 2: There is either Data or Element Content.  "If data can be entered
into within in the element it is said to have mixed content.  The
significance of the distinction is that, within element content, separator
characters suchs as spaces, record starts, record ends and Tabs are ignored"
" [P270 of Bryan's book -- It costs $32.50] 

: YAUOMC
: Yet Another Use Of Mixed Content:

See section 7.6 of the ISO standard starting on page 319 of 
"The SGML Handbook" [1] for the authoritative explanation of mixed content.

Or if you are like me and not very SGML and Parser literate read pages
269-271 of this great book.

Bryan, Martin. SGML; An Author's Guide to the Standard
     Generalized Markup Language. Addison-Wesley Publishers,
     Ltd., 1988. ISBN 0-201-17535-5. QA76.73.S44B79 1988. 

It should be in many good bookstores.  I find that this book uses language
to explain what is really going on in this SGML stuff.  For example Martin
Bryan discusses "Tag Recognition" before he talks about mixed content.  
He takes a few paragraphs to explain what the parser is doing--other SGML
books didn't do that.  I like this book.

Oh, if you go to a bookstore to look at SGML books, read pages 312-5
of 
Travis, Brian E. & Waldt, Dale C. The SGML
     Implementation Guide: A Blueprint for SGML Migration.
     Springer-Verlag, 1995. ISBN 3-540-57730-0
     QA76.76.H94T73 1995. 

---
Note 1:
Goldfarb, Charles F. The SGML Handbook. Oxford:
     Clarendon Press, 1990. ISBN 0-19-853737-9.
     Z286.E43G64 1990. 

I hope this is helpful and I hope someone will PLEASE correct anything
I've written here.

Thanks,

frank

Frank McNeil
ftmexpat@shellx.best.com


: The (partially) expanded ADDRESS ELEMENT declaration is:

: \<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - ((#PCDATA | SUB | SUP | B | %notmath)* | P*)>

: Which is mixed content that is not a repeatable 'or' group.

: So, when the parser scans to here:
: \<BODY>
: \<ADDRESS>
:          ^

: it interprets the newline (RE) as #PCDATA, and is therefore here:
: \<!ELEMENT ADDRESS - - ((#PCDATA | SUB | SUP | B | %notmath)* | P*)>
:                         ^^^^^^^

: in the content model. \<P> is now not allowed. It should work if 
: formatted as below:

: ...

: \<BODY>
: \<ADDRESS>\<P>Test\</ADDRESS>

: ...

</message>
<message id="<x2ka3a9wnm.fsf@bush.kubism.ku.dk>" date="3029602798" seqno="11968">
From: pd@kubism.ku.dk (Peter Dalgaard BSA)
Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.text.tex,comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: Math and SGML (was Re: Is there no reasonable way to write and dis
Date: 02 Jan 1996 21:19:58 +0100
Organization: Messed Up
Sender: pd@bush.kubism.ku.dk
Message-ID: \<x2ka3a9wnm.fsf@bush.kubism.ku.dk>
References: <4bjk94$27cp@b.stat.purdue.edu> <4bulqq$2024@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <4bv129$tmn@b.stat.purdue.edu> <4bvb3b$e3p@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu> <4c0sqv$ldd@b.stat.purdue.edu>
In-reply-to: hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu's message of 29 Dec 1995 09:09:35 -0500
To: hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)

In article <4c0sqv$ldd@b.stat.purdue.edu> hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

[large bit of (moderate) flaming deleted]
   There are NOW, and there have been for years, systems which do 
   essentially what I am asking for.  
[more stuff deleted]

Then use them....

Seriously: I think you'll find every single one of them lacking in
some respect. This stuff is trickier to get right than one might
expect. 

You can't be blamed for feeling that something's not right about
TeX. Specifically, it lacks modularity, hooks, and clear separation of
programming language and data [some call that a feature, I know] -
along with all of its minor quirks. However, there are major things it
gets right: Logical grouping, automatic scaling of symbols, symbol
type distinctions, programmability, and myriads of little things. And
the one thing that one never thinks of: You can't forget how you did
something in TeX...(not unless you threw away the source, that is.)

You may want to try out the MathSpad system (an "ergonomic" interface
to TeX/LaTeX - semi WYSIWYG, but with logical structuring
elements, "stencils"). It takes a while to get into, but it's one of
the best shots at the problem I've seen. It's free.

Look in win.tue.nl:/pub/math.prog.construction/mathpad
-- 
   O_   ---- Peter Dalgaard
  c/ /'  --- Dept. of Biostatistics 
 ( ) \\( ) -- University of Copenhagen
~~~~~~~~~~ - (pd@kubism.ku.dk)
</message>
<message id="<4cc56c$25aq@b.stat.purdue.edu>" date="3029603980" seqno="11969">
From: hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.text.tex,comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: Math and SGML (was Re: Is there no reasonable way to write and dis
Date: 2 Jan 1996 15:39:40 -0500
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Message-ID: <4cc56c$25aq@b.stat.purdue.edu>
References: <4bjk94$27cp@b.stat.purdue.edu> \<DK7F6D.K13@mv.mv.com> \<jyf91jxv023.fsf@tcs07.nada.kth.se> <1996Jan118.13.56.7359@silverton.berkeley.edu>

In article <1996Jan118.13.56.7359@silverton.berkeley.edu>,
D. J. Bernstein \<djb@silverton.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Staffan Ulfberg \<staffanu@tcs07.nada.kth.se> wrote:
>> I do, however, agree that it seems a bit old-fashioned to have to type
>> "\\alpha," "\\subseteq," etc. for symbols that could obviously be
>> displayed in an editor (e.g., sam (a text editor, not a word
>> processor) for Plan 9 allows for this).

>Hmmm. This seems to be mixing two issues.

>Displaying symbols on the screen: As long as your CRT is capable of
>displaying an alpha, wherever \\alpha shows up on your screen it should
>be replaced with the alpha symbol. I played with this several years ago
>on actual dumb terminals; it would be easy to stick support for it into
>programs like xterm and screen.

It seems that you are joining the large group which says that it is
easy.  But where is the software which can do this without leaving
an editor?

>Typing symbols: If you want to type control-F7 to get \\alpha, surely
>your current editor has a macro facility that will do the trick. In vi,
>for example, edit your .exrc and type :map! ^V^F7 \\alpha.

I would rather have an additional shift operation, and use the Greek
shift with a to put an alpha on the screen and in the file.  There is
little problem in converting a linear text file to TeX.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu	 Phone: (317)494-6054	FAX: (317)494-0558
</message>
<message id="<4cc6m1$l8o@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>" date="3029605505" seqno="11970">
From: jens@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de (Jens Pfeiffer)
Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.text.tex,comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: WYSIWYG Math and Latex (was MATH and SGML)
Followup-To: sci.math,comp.text.tex,comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Date: 2 Jan 1996 21:05:05 GMT
Organization: Mathematisches Institut Bonn
Message-ID: <4cc6m1$l8o@news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
References: <820460899snz@sciword.demon.co.uk> <4caljf$f3r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>

Why the hell do people always start advertising!?!?
I'd really appreciate if you had something reasonable to say to this thread,
but please stop silly postings!

--
Jens Pfeiffer                   Tel.: (0)228 73 2925
Mathematisches Institut
Universit"at Bonn
Beringstr. 3
53115 Bonn                      email: jens@math.uni-bonn.de

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</message>
<message id="<4cc49m$hvn@shellx.best.com>" date="3029603062" seqno="11971">
From: ftmexpat@shellx.best.com (Frank McNeil)
Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
Subject: Re: [Q]: HTML 3 and content model of \<ADDRESS> tag?
Date: 2 Jan 1996 12:24:22 -0800
Organization: Best Internet Communications
Message-ID: <4cc49m$hvn@shellx.best.com>
References: <30E402C6.4B4F@visionik.dk> <4cbl60$fhr@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com> <4cc3gr$bl2@shellx.best.com>

Frank McNeil (ftmexpat@shellx.best.com) wrote:

Another bad typo, but this time I was quoting a recomended author.


: ----
: Note 2: There is either Data or Element Content.  "If data can be entered
within the element, the model is said to contain mixed content.  The
: significance of the distinction is that, within element content, separator
: characters such as spaces, record starts, record ends and Tabs are ignored"
: " [P270 of Bryan's book -- It costs $32.50] 

frank


P.S.

Bryan, Martin. SGML; An Author's Guide to the Standard
     Generalized Markup Language. Addison-Wesley Publishers,
     Ltd., 1988. ISBN 0-201-17535-5. QA76.73.S44B79 1988.
</message>
<message id="<4cc6op$scf@b.stat.purdue.edu>" date="3029605593" seqno="11972">
From: hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.text.tex,comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Math and SGML (was Re: Is there no reasonable way to write and dis
Date: 2 Jan 1996 16:06:33 -0500
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Message-ID: <4cc6op$scf@b.stat.purdue.edu>
References: <4bjk94$27cp@b.stat.purdue.edu> <4c1qaq$n7u@ionews.io.org> <4c8s7h$20tj@b.stat.purdue.edu> <4c9ot7$ri9@ionews.io.org>

In article <4c9ot7$ri9@ionews.io.org>, Patrick TJ McPhee \<ptjm@io.org> wrote:
>In article <4c8s7h$20tj@b.stat.purdue.edu>,
>Herman Rubin \<hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu> wrote:
>% In article <4c1qaq$n7u@ionews.io.org>, Patrick TJ McPhee \<ptjm@io.org> wrote:
>% >[...] One of the things I like about TeX is that you can
>% >often create macros which allow you to type equations more-or-less the
>% >way you'd say them out-loud, which strikes me as the best way to type
>% >them.

>% Now if you sent me those two lines, [ptjm -- two equations in TeX
>% notation] I would have to put your communication
>% in a file, edit the file to avoid accidents from TeX, send them through a
>% TeX processor, and then use another processor to read them.

>Perhaps, but I wouldn't have to do this.  I would simply read the equation
>as it was written, and I would see what it was.  If we were actually
>corresponding about something, we'd want to agree on some macros
>for common operations that come up in whatever we're doing, and reduce
>the amount of visual content in our equations.  As a simple minded
>example, rather than typing \\dot x or x' or dx\\over dt, we would type
>\\derivative x or something like that.

I would type dx/dt instead.  Anything moderately complicated would
become too long if \\derivative is needed.

>I suppose what I was trying to get at was that, if you want to write
>mathematics for a non-graphic CRT, you can't use conventional mathematical
>notation.  TeX notation is convenient because it can be extended to
>suit individual needs, and you can format it to get nicely displayed
>equations if you like.

There have been semi-dumb terminal interfaces which allowed weak graphics.
If there was such an editor, this might become more common.  But it might
even be as cheap to have a terminal emulator with full facilities.

Remember that even the dumbest terminal basically is graphic.  There is
a read-write memory for the characters to be displayed, and a read-only
"graphics" memory for the characters.  To achieve the goal on a "dumb"
terminal, one needs merely to have more than 7 bits for the characters,
and to have a modifiable memory of appropriate size for the displays
for the characters.  This is not a stupendous job.

The essential part of this is the ability to use more than 7 bits for
the characters to be displayed.  

>% The backslash is used in mathematics for several meanings already.
>% I would rarely use dots for differentiation, but I use set operations
>% and other fonts frequently. [...] The need to escape the { and }
>% because these are used for grammatical purposes by TeX is also a major
>% nuisance.  [...] I may be missing some, but all of the following
>% characters have special uses in TeX: $ % ^ & \\ { } " , and I have
>% had problems with all of them.
>[fwiw, " doesn't have a special use, and you missed ~ and #]

>But they don't have to.  I don't have a problem with escaping things
>myself, but you can always redefine these characters so they aren't
>special any more, if that's more convenient for you.

>I guess if you never use things like superscripts and subscripts, summations
>over ranges, integration, division involving lots and lots of stuff on
>both the top and the bottom, series of equations, and all those other things
>that make typesetting mathematics difficult, all you need is a wordprocessor
>that supports lots of symbols, and you're off to the races.  Otherwise
>that solution won't be sufficient.

Series of equations runs into one of the other nasty aspects of a 
typesetter as against a typewriter, namely, that it is a major headache
to manage alignment.  This is easy with a WYSIWYG  editor, especially an
editor which ignores ends of lines in vertical movement of the cursor.

Also, one does not have to put in \\break or \\fill of the appropriate 
kind to get lines and pages to come out as the writer wants.

Summations and integrations over ranges are a problem, and are nastier
with just an editor.  On the other hand, plain summation and integration
signs, set operations, logical operations, etc., are much easier with
an editor.  And I really would prefer half spacing for subsrcipts and
superscripts; normal printed subscripts and superscripts are often too
close to the line to be recognized as such.  I do know how to force a
larger displacement by using a dummy one of the other type.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu	 Phone: (317)494-6054	FAX: (317)494-0558
</message>
<message id="<m2ybrqtero.fsf@notung.msu.edu>" date="3029610363" seqno="11973">
From: dunham@gdl.msu.edu (Steve Dunham)
Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.text.tex,comp.text.sgml
Subject: Re: Math and SGML (was Re: Is there no reasonable way to write and dis
Date: 02 Jan 1996 17:26:03 -0500
Organization: MSU
Sender: dunham@notung.msu.edu
Message-ID: \<m2ybrqtero.fsf@notung.msu.edu>
References: <4bjk94$27cp@b.stat.purdue.edu> <19951227T083428Z@arcana.naggum.no> <4brhbp$1nvf@b.stat.purdue.edu> <4c1qaq$n7u@ionews.io.org> <4c8s7h$20tj@b.stat.purdue.edu> <4cbgel$ovq@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>
In-reply-to: uwe@mpi-sb.mpg.de's message of 2 Jan 1996 14:45:41 GMT

In article <4cbgel$ovq@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> uwe@mpi-sb.mpg.de (Uwe Waldmann) writes:
> In article <4c8s7h$20tj@b.stat.purdue.edu>, Herman Rubin
> \<hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu> writes:
> > Most of the time, I do not care if mathematical symbols are in
> > math italics, and I do object to having to type $k$-ary.  
> 
> As a reader of mathematical texts, I think it is one of the nicest
> features of TeX that it forces people to use math italics even if
> they don't care. (I do care.)

A lot of people care.  I care; I've had professors that care (enough
to note when I accidentally forgot in one place on a homework
assignment).  The point of typing the stuff in the first place is to
communicate with other people; marking things like the $k$ above make
the text easier to read and understand, improving communication.

On the non-mathematical front - the line breaking algorithm in
Microsoft Word is abysmal -- Why? -- Knuth's method is public domain,
and with a very minor modification it can give excellent interactive
performance.  (Constant time and linear memory to find a new way to
break the paragraph when material is inserted.)

Also, Microsoft Word seems to lack kerning, ligatures and other
features which really make a big difference in the way a document
looks.

Steve


</message>
