From: "Eve L. Maler" \ Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml Subject: Re: What are the limits of marked section declarations? Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:47:18 -0500 Organization: ArborText, Inc. Message-ID: <311FDF96.FBA@arbortext.com> References: <4fg9pb$11h@news.cerf.net> CC: elm@arbortext.com Whatis wrote: > > I'm currently converting a help system with a proprietary source > into SGML. Most of it has gone pretty smoothly, but I'm up > against a problem I can't solve. > > The previous help system allowed the help to be tuned to specific > products and families of products, using boolean expressions at > about the same level as the C pre-processor. For instance, > > @X||Y&&(!Z) > Some text > @ELSE > Some other text > @END > > The facility I see in SGML for doing stuff like this is the marked > setion declaration, combined with parameter entities. That way, I > can set up declarations like > > \ > \ > > and later use it to include/ignore text like > > \ > > But I couldn't find a facility in SGML for doing any sort of > interesting boolean expressions! I can of course simulate the > and-operator by nesting marked section declarations, but the > or-operator, not-operator, else-operator, and precedence-parentheses > are missing! > > What do I do in SGML? Or am I SOL? > > Steven Boswell > whatis@yyz.com This is sort of a hole in marked section design, but there's a partial solution (which Paul Grosso just pointed out to me) if you want to stick to controlling the output through SGML. If you're willing to create individual marked-section parameter entities to represent the different expressions you want to build, you can use (meta :-)marked sections to make it easier to define those parameter entities. For example: \ \ \ \ \ \]]> \ \ \]]> \ \]]> \ \ \]]> \ \]]> \ \ This isn't exactly an elegant solution if you need to come up with the different logical combinations on the fly or if you have a lot of product differentiation, but it would work okay for relatively simple, static combinations and makes it easier to manage the settings. -- \ \ \ \ From: to44471@piau () Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml Subject: Yasp Date: 13 Feb 1996 09:23:41 GMT Message-ID: <4fplat$lud@news.cict.fr> Reply-To: manuel.bettini@avions.aerospatiale.fr Please, Where can I find the Yasp product package ? Please give me the answer by E-Mail : manuel.bettini@avions.aerospatiale.fr Thank you ! -- ***************************************** * * * /\\0/ o 0 * * O \\\\ | O--\\\\ * * // | / \\ * * ===================================== * * Manuel Bettini * * manuel.bettini@avions.aerospatiale.fr * * A/BTE/SY/SQIP BP M0151/8 * * 316, route de Bayonne * * 31060 Toulouse Cedex 03 France * ***************************************** Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml From: "M.Bearne" \ Subject: SGML -> RFT Converter Sender: newsman@prl.research.philips.com (Usenet Admin) Message-ID: <31206E03.5F9D@prl.research.philips.com> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 10:54:59 GMT Organization: Philips Research Laboratories Hello, I have two tools, one which will output SGML format files and one which will read RTF format files. I wish to take the output of tool1 and import it into tool2. Can anybody suggest a SGML -> RTF conversion program that might accomplish this ? Thanks, Mike Bearne. From: mcclellantj@harrier (Tad McClellan) Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml,alt.hypertext Subject: Re: Strongly-Typed Hyperlinks Followup-To: comp.text.sgml,alt.hypertext Date: 13 Feb 1996 13:05:31 GMT Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems Message-ID: <4fq2ar$hmf@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com> References: <31164A18.25C4@passage.com> <4f6onv$t18@Venus.mcs.com> \ <4fnqa5$p8t@Venus.mcs.com> \ Reply-To: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com Mark Bernstein (Bernstein@eastgate.com) wrote: : Ok, folks, I've just about had it. : Disposing of the gratuitous clauses, Barger writes that : > So, as far as you know, the people who claimed that the WWWeb was : > fatally flawed for lack of [typed links]..... were talking Bull? : This is reprehensible nettiquette, as it purports to paraphrase Connolly's ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ : position while actually contradicting it. Bravo Mark !! -- Tad McClellan, Logistics Specialist (IETMs and SGML guy) email: mcclellantj@lfwc.lockheed.com Interesting trivia: If you took all the sand in North Africa and spread it out... it would cover the Sahara desert. From: jorn@MCS.COM (Jorn Barger) Newsgroups: alt.hypertext,comp.text.sgml Subject: Re: Strongly-Typed Hyperlinks Date: 13 Feb 1996 09:38:55 -0600 Organization: The Responsible Party Message-ID: <4fqbaf$rl4@Mercury.mcs.com> References: <31164A18.25C4@passage.com> <4fnqa5$p8t@Venus.mcs.com> \ Summary: Surprise! Massive ad-hominems from Mark Bernstein!!! Mark Bernstein (who ***never*** flames, and who has only the best interests of the populace in his heart) writes on alt.hypertext: >I'm afraid that it's that time again folks -- time for Bernstein to >attempt to explain yet another mysterious alt.hypertext controvery to >people who might just happen to be dropping by. Those people will do much better to read the messages, because Mark's summary is violently biased. (Oddly, I don't think I've even directed any remarks at Mark this round. He's still fuming from last April...) >Jorn Barger started this one off by proposing to urge people to >voluntarily tag documents with various assigned types: Ooooh, I'm so evil! EVIL!!!! E V I L !!!!! >As is his custom, Barger didn't mention that this isn't a new or original >idea Which, in Mark's value system, is obviously a capital crime. Mark likes: - adverti$$$ing hi$$$ product$$$ - giving credit to past innovators - giving references to off-line resources Mark doesn't like: - discussing how to improve WWWebsite design - allowing Jorn to discuss WWWebsite design >Kia Mennie responds to the invitation to share her thoughts: > >Yes. It's silly. In fact, that "invitation" explicitly discouraged the alt.hypertext Knee-Jerks from kneejerking... [transparent whitewash rinsed] >- documents do not possess a single, unitary role; the same document may >be (and often is) a definition, a polemic, and a narrative Gosh, I guess we better not even try, then, eh? God forbid the peons of the WWWeb should try to *do* things without expert approval... [...] >Jorn reponds with various flames, followed by a substantive suggestion: Mark, last April when you accused me of posting nothing but flames I went thru my posts in the thread and extracted several hundred lines of constructive and substantial material. I seem to recall another repetition of this slander, in the last week, that I ignored. Are you insisting I do it again? [...] >Again, Jorn overlooks the fact that this isn't a new proposal. [...] Which, of course, is *plenty* of reason to crush the discussion like the verminous EVIL it is... (In fact, I've repeatedly said that I don't know the literature at all, and would be happy to give credit where relevant. But Mark's agenda isn't giving-credit-where-credit-is-due, it's squelching-Jorn-from- raising-issues.) >{...] The >IR literature on keyword search methods is vast (also also suggests that >even an intuitively memorizable system would suprise Barger with its >imperfection). Heh. Poor ESP, there, Mark. Simultaneously on comp.text.sgml, Mark foams with froth: >Ok, folks, I've just about had it. You poor, poor man... >On the subject of strongly-typed links, Dan Connolly writes: > >Unfortunately, all I really have right now is an intuition that typed links > >provide for richer knowledge capture and exchange > >Jorn Barger "paraphrases" this response as follows: >> So, as far as you know, the people who claimed that the WWWeb was >> fatally flawed for lack of them, and beneath the interest of the >> experts, were talking Bull? Please note that the term """""paraphrases""""" is Mark's, not mine. >First, Barger implies that some believe that WWW is "beneath the interests >of the experts". He says this often. It is false, silly, and deceptive, >but that seems no deterrent. Gimme a break. I've quoted *dozens* of these dismissals, mostly from Len-the-Bull, but also from several other participants. Kia called it a big infomercial, last April. The examples go on and on and on. >Disposing of the gratuitous clauses, Barger writes that >> So, as far as you know, the people who claimed that the WWWeb was >> fatally flawed for lack of [typed links]..... were talking Bull? >This is reprehensible nettiquette, as it purports to paraphrase Connolly's >position while actually contradicting it. Mark, it ***asks a question***. Dan may answer 'no' or 'yes'. To argue, as Len did in a quote I've reposted *many* times, that no progress could be made on the WWWeb because it lacked strong types, is *arrogant bullshit* and bad science, because there's clearly no proof. >This is irresponsible argumentation. How does "talking bull" contribute to >the discussion? I've contributed hundreds of points of discussion to the discussion. You just froth and cite offline references (and plug your product$$$). Len is a massive bullshit artist. I've proved this in enough detail to call a spade a spade. >This is mendacious, since it sets up a preposterous straw man (the Mark, the mendaciousness is in *your* paraphrase. >mythical hypertext expert with whom Barger seems utterly obsessed) to And whom I've quoted extensively, with attributions. >distract people from the indefensible underlying claim: that Barger has >added anything to the extensive research record on typed links, or indeed >to what he terms "hypertext theory". Wow, cool smear job! Care to quote any places where I've made this 'underlying claim'? (No, I didn't think so...) j -==--- . hypertext theory : artificial intelligence : finnegans wake . _+m"m+_"+_ lynx http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/ ! Jp Jp qh qh best-of news:alt.music.category-freak ! O O O O ftp://ftp.mcs.com/mcsnet.users/jorn/ Yb Yb dY dY ...do you ever feel your mind has started to erode? "Y_ "Y5m2Y" " no. Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:24:13 -0600 Message-ID: <9602132124.AA02210@fly.HiWAAY.net> From: Len Bullard \ Subject: Re: Strongly-Typed Hyperlinks >For an example of a WWW system that uses link types in a similar way (to >clarify where the user can look for different types of information), see: > > http://www.ils.nwu.edu/~e_for_e >This system uses link types to collect specific follow-up questions about >a page under general question categories. This organization is intended >to: > > - allow users who want to ask specific questions to quickly locate them, and > > - to provide a set of general types of questions that less directed > users can scan to see which, if any, they want to ask (and then to > show under these general questions the specific instantiations of them > that the system can actually answer). I looked at the site. It's good to see that Roger Schank is still in action. I have read his materials covered in magazines over the years. Much work on Intelligent Tutoring Systems is his, as I recall (it's been years and the brain erodes...). ;-) The system I encountered at this site organizes links into categories but this appears to be the common static organization of local TOCs. It also states that dynamic linking is not implemented on the Web version but is on the CD. Can the links be organized for the Web dynamically using HTTP or other stateless protocol? Please correct me if I have misunderstood, but what I saw at the site seems to confirm the assertions that strongly typed links require a stateful protocol. Could you elaborate more on how the ASK system can be implemented fully on the WWW using HTTP? What else is required? Thanks, Len Bullard From: bernd@NeRo.Uni-Bonn.DE (Bernd Kreimeier) Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml Subject: Re: Facts, folks. We need facts. Date: 13 Feb 1996 19:55:50 GMT Organization: University of Bonn, Dept. of Comp. Sc. VI, Germany Message-ID: \ References: <9602122117.AA15266@fly.HiWAAY.net> In-reply-to: Len Bullard's message of Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:17:35 -0600 In article <9602122117.AA15266@fly.HiWAAY.net> Len Bullard \ writes: > Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:17:35 -0600 > From: Len Bullard \ > > Cross-posted to comp-text-sgml Beg your pardon - from where? Facts. We need facts :-). > The VRML community is now witnessing what cowboy standards achieve: they > round up the cows, pen them, then ship them off to the meat-packing plant. > > [misc. stuff deleted] This is like listening to a part of one half of a conversation that started yesterday, quite some time before everybody on the party got drunk. I've unsubscribed from the VRML lists two months ago (drowning in electric squirrels). Care to summarize what happened, and how exxactly it is relevant to SGML? > Well, I have read the SGI posting on the subject. Nice. What posting. Btw., I have been able to get the 400K+ Moving worlds proposal within a minute. I have yet to get even the intro on ActiveVRML, www.microsoft.com being about as communicado as last year when I headed for the RTF specs. >[misc. stuff deleted] Besides being lost on what happened, I catch your drift. You care to enlighten us? On the SGML aspect, that is... and where stampede happened that threw the dust in here. B. - SoD - Ignorance killed the cat, curiosity got framed. - From: "Steven R. Newcomb" \ Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml Subject: Re: SGML without DTDs? Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:58:15 -0500 Organization: TechnoTeacher, Inc. Message-ID: <4fr1pj$lm7@murphy.servtech.com> > In article <824033907snz@ursus.demon.co.uk>, > Peter Murray-Rust \ wrote: > > >This approach allows 'unknown' GIs, and it may be claimed that this > >completely breaks the spirit of SGML. The question of whether SGML should have a feature which allows undeclared (in the DTD) GIs to appear in documents is an interesting one. You could take the position that this is already permitted by using the declaration subset, which allows DTDs to be tweaked by each document instance in whatever ways the DTD author allowed such tweaking to occur. Even so, this amounts to *extending the model* of the structure to which the instance must conform, and it does not amount to *breaking* any model. So, let me rephrase the question in several ways, so as to be perfectly clear: * Should SGML be amended so that DTDs can allow *totally unmodelled* structure to occur in documents? * Does SGML's requirement that everything be modelled before it can be expressed actually weaken the expressive power of the language? * Is it a good idea to allow DTD designers the power to allow portions of documents to be *entirely* arbitrarily structured?" * Is arbitrary (or chaotic) structure still a kind of structure, worthy of being modellable? Without voicing my own opinion on this question (which opinion is, in any case, incompletely formed), I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on this. I have good and practical reasons for wanting to know the arguments pro and con. I'll gladly share my reasons if anybody is really interested and after some opinions are expressed. I'm pretty sure that, with simple precautions, unmodelled text can be parsed; that is *not* the question that troubles me. *************************************************************** * Steven R. Newcomb | President * * direct +1 716 389 0964 | TechnoTeacher, Inc. * * main +1 716 389 0961 | (courier: 3800 Monroe Avenue, * * fax +1 716 389 0960 | Pittsford, NY 14534-1330 USA) * * Internet: srn@techno.com | P.O. Box 23795 * * FTP: ftp.techno.com | Rochester, New York 14692-3795 * * WWW: http://www.techno.com | USA * *************************************************************** From: "Frederick R. Phelan Jr." \ Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml Subject: HTML Paragraph Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:26:53 -0500 Organization: NIST Message-ID: <3121102D.7CD3@poly2.nist.gov> I hope this is the appropriate newsgroup. I am trying to make single spaced lines of html text. When I use the \

operator, the browser automatically puts a space between the paragraph's ... how can I stop this behavior? anyone know? -- ---------------------------------------------- Fred Phelan Polymer Composites National Institute of Standards and Technology Gaithersburg, MD 20899 ---------------------------------------------- e-mail .... fred@poly2.nist.gov Frederick.Phelan@nist.gov ---------------------------------------------- Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml From: jjofre@ritz.mordor.com (Jaime A. Jofre) Subject: SGML Parser, YAO, SP, help please.... Message-ID: \ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:17:20 GMT Hi, I need info about SGML parsers. I got SP and YAO so far. Sp I got to compile, but not YAO. Basically what I want to do is give a parser a data file in SGML format along with it DTD and then instead of just parsing the data file, I also want to be able to query the parser for that data. I thought I could put hooks in the SP API but I haven't got any good docs. The same feeling was for YAO (which seemed simpler...), but I haven't been able to compile the system under UNIX or NT. Any clues would be greately appreciated. Thanks in advanced, Jaime. From: Paul Madsen \ Newsgroups: comp.text.sgml Subject: character entity Date: 13 Feb 1996 20:06:42 GMT Organization: Newbridge Networks Corporation Message-ID: <4fqr0i$6nd@kannews.ca.newbridge.com> Is there a character entity for the electrical "ground" symbol( I won't even try to draw it with ASCII characters). Or where would I go to see a complete listing of the character entity sets with their corresponding symbols (ie not a description of the symbol like in the SGML handbook) Paul Madsen Online Doc Newbridge Networks